2025-03-01 10:15:55 tl I think that it's easier (and more effective) to use containers/lxc/sandboxes than apparmor/selinux. The answer to X is more secure than Y is very dependant on context and threat model but I would say that alpine is more secure than debian (less attack surface and more selective package inclusion, musl, no so eternal LTS policy which lets tons of bugs never fixed...) 2025-03-01 10:20:46 lol, he left :\ 2025-03-01 10:28:04 lol , she right. 2025-03-01 10:28:06 lol, it wrote 2025-03-01 11:18:53 Hi guys, trying to get X working on a Raspbery pi 500, seem sto be different to the Pi 5. According to logs, fails on /dev/dri/card0, but there is not even a /dev/dri directory on the system! Can anyone help with this? 2025-03-01 11:23:37 I will try a cloned SD card from the Pi5 later, but I am currently backing up SD cards so I can't do it for a while yet. 2025-03-01 11:25:31 Incidentally, the Pi 500 system is a fresh install, using setup-alpine, then setup-desktop, so more "conventional" than my earlier installs 2025-03-01 11:28:47 m4r35n357: nothing wrong on 'dmesg'? 2025-03-01 11:30:46 m4r35n357: perhaps you need a suitable device tree for that board 2025-03-01 11:30:47 donoban, nothing regarding drm, is there something else I should grep for? 2025-03-01 11:31:37 ikke, that is where my experience ends, I am afraid! Once the SD backups are done I will get a log from the PiOS system for comparison 2025-03-01 11:32:15 It's also not my area if expertise 2025-03-01 11:32:33 I have wroking logs from Pi 3/4/5 and PiOS on a 500, so there must be a way . . . 2025-03-01 11:38:36 no idea but looks kernel related, I haven't use a raspberry in yaers.. 2025-03-01 11:38:44 years* 2025-03-01 11:39:45 donoban, I have to assume that /dev/dri is created by X probing, otherwise the problem must be udev or something else 2025-03-01 11:41:27 donoban, Alpine flies on a Pi5 or higher . . . ;) Just a couple of minor niggles that I am still chasing up 2025-03-01 11:41:38 m4r35n357: it needs to already exist 2025-03-01 11:41:57 It's the graphics driver that should create it 2025-03-01 11:45:17 ikke, that sounds significant, but I am trying to work out how I can use that information ;) The Xorg logs just show "open /dev/dri/card0 no such file or directory", with no further information 2025-03-01 11:46:35 From what I know, the kernel needs a suitable device tree (dts) to know what hardware is present on the device 2025-03-01 11:47:43 https://github.com/raspberrypi/documentation/blob/develop/documentation/asciidoc/computers/configuration/device-tree.adoc 2025-03-01 11:50:09 It mentions bcm2712 for the rpi 500 2025-03-01 11:53:22 ikke, well I don't really know what the "device tree" is for any of my Pis, so unfortunately I don't think I am capable of using that information. I am just asking in case there are other souls using the same hardware. One of the nice things about a Pi is that it is 100% known hardware, but I guess if no devs have one that makes no difference! 2025-03-01 11:54:39 ikke, the thing is, I don't know of any configuration relating to device trees 2025-03-01 11:58:30 m4r35n357: hey, did you saw my message earlier about the alsa dmix issue? 2025-03-01 11:59:41 aron, no, let me scroll back! 2025-03-01 12:01:09 aron, do you have a rough date/time, or is the solution simple? 2025-03-01 12:02:03 m4r35n357: if you have a working setup, you could check if there is a .dtb file in the /boot directory 2025-03-01 12:02:45 m4r35n357: you can also try asking in #alpine-arm 2025-03-01 12:03:25 m4r35n357: it this week I think, but in a nutshell, I found a related stkovf question with the same symtomps you have, and the solution was to reorder the cards, because loop was detected first 2025-03-01 12:04:15 and it somehow messed up dmix 2025-03-01 12:04:23 aron, OK I haev found your message, I saw that one, but I didn't find anything relavant in it, so lookinng again 2025-03-01 12:04:40 did you tried to reorder the cards? 2025-03-01 12:05:14 ikke, OK cheers, I didn't know about alpine-arm! 2025-03-01 12:06:04 aron, I need to read that whole thread, I think at the time I saw the word "intel" and decided it was not relevant 2025-03-01 12:08:05 aron, OK I have two cards: one for each HDMI output, and I know nothing about a "loop" soudn device, so not sure if this appies to me 2025-03-01 12:08:59 loop is not a real hardware 2025-03-01 12:09:13 similar to "lo" in networking 2025-03-01 12:10:21 give it a try, it might help 2025-03-01 12:10:51 aron, I need to think a bit, I dont' know what to do ATM . . . ! 2025-03-01 12:11:05 sure 2025-03-01 12:11:47 I need to know what to put instead of "hda intel", for a start 2025-03-01 12:13:21 aron, thsoe look more like kernel module names than card descriptions 2025-03-01 12:14:05 aron, OK I see! 2025-03-01 12:16:20 aron, I need to know what my audio module is called . . . still trying to find out 2025-03-01 12:16:32 okay 2025-03-01 12:18:33 aron, I seem to recall loaded modules are in a list somewhere (on /proc?) - do you know where? 2025-03-01 12:18:42 lsmod 2025-03-01 12:19:04 aron, thanks! - one more on the list of forgottten things ;) 2025-03-01 12:19:27 :) 2025-03-01 12:19:53 aron, I will asume it is snd_pcm, her ewe go . . . 2025-03-01 12:21:09 crossing fingers 2025-03-01 12:23:04 artok, I'm not sure how to modprobe/restart alsa properly, so I will reboot 2025-03-01 12:23:30 in the thread they advised to reboot 2025-03-01 12:24:01 aron, yep, just closing stuff down, see you shortly ;) 2025-03-01 12:25:57 I think snd_pcm is not the right one 2025-03-01 12:26:14 is that an arm SBC? 2025-03-01 12:26:31 aron, you are probably right, I am still getting "aplay: main:850: audio open error: Resource busy" 2025-03-01 12:26:54 it is a Raspberry Pi, so yes, but a very specific one ;) 2025-03-01 12:27:15 can you share your lsmod output? 2025-03-01 12:28:18 aron, I might try snd_soc_hdmi_codec instead, but I'll post lsmod anyway 2025-03-01 12:28:36 that sounds much better 2025-03-01 12:29:00 on my arm sbc it's called "sun4i_codec" 2025-03-01 12:29:09 aron, https://pastebin.com/WDTT6J4c 2025-03-01 12:30:33 aron, rebooting again . . . 2025-03-01 12:33:53 aron, that one didn't work either 2025-03-01 12:34:21 once again: the first mpv produces sounds, but the second parallel one does not 2025-03-01 12:34:54 aron, yes - are you trying this yourself? 2025-03-01 12:35:05 it works for me 2025-03-01 12:35:21 aron, wow, what hardware? 2025-03-01 12:35:45 like, on every hw I have :) 2025-03-01 12:36:05 but the SBCs are orange pi zero and orange pi pc+ 2025-03-01 12:36:37 I always enable dmix, it annoys me if only 1 process can have sounds 2025-03-01 12:38:20 aron, yes, you are fortunate ;) I am pretty sure now this is nto a configuration issue, I hve tried so many potential solutions, each giving identical results 2025-03-01 12:39:36 aron, I think unless one of devs starts using Pis, thsi will remain unsolved . . . :( 2025-03-01 12:40:37 I still think it is a configuration issue, and you just didn't found the correct solution 2025-03-01 12:41:12 sadly the alsa configuration is binary: it is either good, or bad -- there is noting between 2025-03-01 12:42:00 on my laptop I needed more than 1 year to fix a configuration issue 2025-03-01 12:42:04 aron, I can;'t think of any other places to reconfigure though 2025-03-01 12:42:05 but it's working now 2025-03-01 12:42:29 don't worry, there is always another way to express your wishes in alsa :D 2025-03-01 12:42:52 aron, fortunately this is more of an irritation than a blocker, but I hope I get it working in less than a year ;) 2025-03-01 12:42:52 even if you think you saw everything :D 2025-03-01 12:44:47 it would be super nice tho, to have a tool for alsa to see the actual routings, I could use that 2025-03-01 12:46:02 aron, trying one thing, brb . . . 2025-03-01 12:49:26 aron, this is whet I have modprobe-wise after adding the second sound card ;) https://pastebin.com/hqCmdMBF 2025-03-01 12:50:23 and what happened this time? 2025-03-01 12:50:44 oh, just a second 2025-03-01 12:50:52 $ cat /etc/modprobe.d/alsa 2025-03-01 12:51:17 I think it works only if file name ends with ".conf" 2025-03-01 12:52:28 aron, I can try that, biot i thought the idea about a ".d" directory is that _all _ files are used, but I shall try anyway 2025-03-01 12:53:35 aron, OK not working without reboot, so here we go again . . . 2025-03-01 12:55:03 modprobe won't work without reboot :P 2025-03-01 12:55:38 btw: 2025-03-01 12:55:40 https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Architecture#Loading_of_Kernel_Modules 2025-03-01 12:55:47 /etc/init.d/modules loads all modules specified in /etc/modules and /(etc|run|usr/lib|lib)/modules-load.d/*.conf 2025-03-01 12:56:22 close, but this one talks about *.conf 2025-03-01 12:56:24 aron, still not working, ATM I have that modprobe fragment, and NO ALSA config 2025-03-01 12:56:47 so, it did something now, it is a good sign afterall 2025-03-01 12:57:09 aron, you may well be right, i am remembering the ancient docs for run-parts on debian ;) 2025-03-01 12:57:16 I'd say the duplicate lines with index=0 and index=1 is conflicting 2025-03-01 12:58:02 aron, that was the last change I made - ther are two cards, one per HDMI output, so it made no sense not to include both 2025-03-01 12:58:39 aron, but previously I only had the first one and it didn't work 2025-03-01 12:58:43 okay, but what do you think, how the kernel will distingush the two? 2025-03-01 12:59:22 "options snd_soc_hdmi_codec index=0" <-- tells the kernel that "snd_soc_hdmi_codec" module will have "index=0" 2025-03-01 12:59:23 aron, as far as I know, it will bive them each an index and let modrpobe sort is out? dunno really this is pretty low level for me ;) 2025-03-01 12:59:29 _module_, not device! 2025-03-01 13:00:00 a module can be used by multiple devices 2025-03-01 13:00:41 aron, struggling to keep up, none of this is really obvious and I am just hanging on 2025-03-01 13:01:04 aron, are you saying I should take one out? 2025-03-01 13:01:09 that's why I try to explain it to you :) 2025-03-01 13:01:19 I would 2025-03-01 13:02:05 hmm 2025-03-01 13:02:21 you said you have 2 instances from that module 2025-03-01 13:02:29 it this 100% sure? 2025-03-01 13:02:55 aron, well I had that before but I want to cooperate, so here goes . . . 2025-03-01 13:03:46 Hey. Anyone managed to startup 'kodi-gdm' via xinit? Directly from the tty it starts up fine but after creating the '~/.xinitrc' with 'exec kodi-gdm' it fails to start GUI. I have to leave now for some time but if anyone could leave any pointers I'll catch up to this chat when I'm back. The goal is to have kodi(-gdm) started at boot, I was thinking via the xinit to avoid a full-blown WM but perhaps missing something. Much appreciate. 2025-03-01 13:03:51 aron, mot sure what you mean by "2 instances from that module", I am just saying there are two physical bits of hardware 2025-03-01 13:06:07 I'm asking because on my laptop I have 2 outputs as well 2025-03-01 13:06:24 they were different tho, but it shouldn't matter 2025-03-01 13:06:33 it is not with me right now 2025-03-01 13:06:46 aron, just tried it again with the one entry in modules (plus loop) - no difference 2025-03-01 13:07:19 in the evening I can send you the config file from that machine 2025-03-01 13:07:30 maybe you find something useful in it 2025-03-01 13:07:55 or I try to find the source 2025-03-01 13:09:37 aron, I will happily read anythin you send, but it is hard to be optimistic at this point. When something that should "just work" does not, there is usually a good reason IME 2025-03-01 13:19:26 aron, thanks for chasing this up, obviously I'd appreciate if you ping here if you stumble across a solution somehow, but I don't want to waste ony more of your time on a lost cause! 2025-03-01 13:19:34 m4r35n357: what's the output of this? cat /proc/asound/modules 2025-03-01 13:20:57 aron, 0 vc4 1 vc4 2025-03-01 13:21:39 there is the answer, how the audio module is called 2025-03-01 13:22:10 I found one half of the answers I used on my laptop 2025-03-01 13:22:13 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/43939191/alsa-how-to-duplicate-a-stream-on-2-outputs-and-save-system-configs 2025-03-01 13:22:16 aron, are you saying "vc4" is the name I need to use in modprobe 2025-03-01 13:22:35 yes, but the indicies are good enough 2025-03-01 13:22:40 "0" is the primary 2025-03-01 13:24:02 aron, I would rather put "vc4 index=0" than "0 index=0" ! 2025-03-01 13:24:21 I mean, index=0 2025-03-01 13:24:42 aron, I think we agree ;) rebooting 2025-03-01 13:24:51 if index of a card is 0 then it is the primary 2025-03-01 13:26:58 aron, still no, unfortunately 2025-03-01 13:27:56 good job I sorted out my "reboot from XFCE" rpoblem earlier ;) 2025-03-01 13:28:29 then remove ~/.asound and /etc/asound.conf, and try everything from scratch; I think a lot of conflicting configuration was placed into them, and alsa is just confused 2025-03-01 13:29:15 using dmix on a single output is the simplest thing you could imagine 2025-03-01 13:29:55 aron, there is nothing there, I always start afresh each time I try this 2025-03-01 13:29:58 it worked for me every single time, the only struggle was with my laptop because I wanted to route to 2 separate hardware 2025-03-01 13:30:19 wait, "there is nothing there"? 2025-03-01 13:30:22 aron, that is why I think it si fundamentally broken somewhere else 2025-03-01 13:31:23 if those are empty, then dmix won't be used, tho 2025-03-01 13:31:54 aron, I took out the /etc/asound.conf earlier, I dont' need ~/.asoundrc on a Pi 5 2025-03-01 13:32:13 aron, I have just restored the dmix configs, and it makes not difference 2025-03-01 13:34:09 sadly I ran out if ideas again 2025-03-01 13:34:35 aron, I have just resotred each of the possible config files one by one, and none fixes it 2025-03-01 13:34:58 aron, that is cool you have done a lot! thank you 2025-03-01 13:35:11 aron, sometimes things are just broken 2025-03-01 13:35:18 :\ 2025-03-01 13:35:38 I hate when I can't fix something :P 2025-03-01 13:35:59 aron, if someone were to turn up and say "I have this working on a Raspbery Pi", that would make me look stupid but it would still be fine by me 2025-03-01 13:36:13 aron, I have juswt chosen the wrokng hardware, that is all 2025-03-01 13:36:38 I have RPi2 but I don't really like the hardware 2025-03-01 13:36:48 so I don't use it 2025-03-01 13:37:04 aron, and it is a hobby machine for now, so nothing is really at stake 2025-03-01 13:37:56 aron, Pi5/500 are fantastic, anything before the 4 with 4GB is too low on memory, but an 8GB 5 flies 2025-03-01 13:38:30 well, it depends on what do you want to achieve with it 2025-03-01 13:38:50 aron, I guess I thought with millions of these things floating around, I would be onto a winner, how wrong I was ;) 2025-03-01 13:39:21 a simple V3s with 64MB RAM can work well, depends on the task :P 2025-03-01 13:40:09 yes, 64MB is not much 2025-03-01 13:40:33 but you don't want to run a crappy browser everywhere :D 2025-03-01 13:41:09 orange pi zero has 512 MB, and I have a desktop with that 2025-03-01 13:41:22 orange pi pc+ with 1GB can serve a fullhd desktop 2025-03-01 13:41:41 just don't try to open a browser :P 2025-03-01 13:42:32 aron, I have a more mimimal system for a file server, whcih runs fine in 1GB, but I would ba wary of going below 512MB for that purpose. 64MB sound insane ;) 2025-03-01 13:44:32 funfact: once I tried out a V3s (64MB RAM) with archlinux... it booted up, and I could log in, but that's all, no more memory, not even for an mc 2025-03-01 13:44:54 and I thought, this *must* work, so I looked up a different distro 2025-03-01 13:45:06 alpine came, and alpine won 2025-03-01 13:45:32 once I dumped the systemd and glibc, much more memory left for user processes 2025-03-01 13:46:14 now, only 16MB of 64MB is used by kernel and the init/services, 48MB left for user processes 2025-03-01 13:46:17 aron, is that all down to busybox/musl, or are there other "efficiencies" wrt arch? 2025-03-01 13:46:23 *huge* difference 2025-03-01 13:46:56 wrt is much smaller, but a LOT harder to develop custom software for it 2025-03-01 13:47:11 so a linux was a must-haver 2025-03-01 13:47:17 -r 2025-03-01 13:49:30 aron, if you can run vifm, vi & tmux you can do a lot I think 2025-03-01 13:50:09 I'm an mc guy :) 2025-03-01 13:50:21 also, screen instead of tmux 2025-03-01 13:50:52 aron, I thought tmux was smaller - I found it simpler certainly 2025-03-01 13:51:23 I'm used to screen, and I saw tmux many years after, and I'm too lazy to switch 2025-03-01 13:51:51 aron, I sort of compare screen/tmux with sudo/doas 2025-03-01 13:52:26 I use none of sudo/doas 2025-03-01 13:52:28 :P 2025-03-01 13:53:18 aron, if there is a better solution to running priviledged stuff in a acript, i am all ears! 2025-03-01 13:53:19 rather I use sud0, which is much smaller, and suits well for my use cases 2025-03-01 13:53:36 aron, I'll look at that 2025-03-01 13:54:39 perfect to run priviledged stuff in scripts 2025-03-01 13:54:40 aron, asnyhoo, despite the niggle swith Alpine, I have a really nice system here, ad I cant' see anything better emerging in the future 2025-03-01 13:55:42 ;) 2025-03-01 15:16:20 to be fair, screen/tmux shouldn't even exist 2025-03-01 15:16:50 i use tmux all the time but it breaks a ton of assumptions, and adds a lot of complexity 2025-03-01 15:25:52 invoked, sure, I always have to go on the net to remind myself how to scroll back, but I mostly use it as a console "vnc", to start a long-running process on another machine from a laptop,and come back to it after hibernation or reboot or whatever 2025-03-01 15:56:10 yeah. i don't use kitty, but its author (kovidgoyal) makes a consistent argument against the use of screen/tmux and he's not wrong. but even there he has to admit there's exceptions to that position. 2025-03-01 15:56:41 at the very least there's a solid argument against using tmux locally 2025-03-01 15:57:32 You should try dvtm/abduco combo if your problem is forgetting how to use it, or you just the abduco feature and not the terminal muxing 2025-03-01 16:00:54 invoked whats his argument against it? 2025-03-01 16:02:42 trying dwm again, seems i dont need multiplexing 2025-03-01 16:03:14 Does anyone use AlpineLinux as a primary OS on their desktop/laptop 2025-03-01 16:03:16 Or maybe even a phone 2025-03-01 16:03:34 melamit yes 2025-03-01 16:03:49 i assume most do here 2025-03-01 16:03:55 Melamit: definitelly yes, on daily use 2025-03-01 16:04:42 frag: I thought I am the only insane here 2025-03-01 16:05:02 You're on #alpine-linux, the probabilities that people here use Alpine Linux are high 2025-03-01 16:05:10 lol 2025-03-01 16:05:14 hehe 2025-03-01 16:05:19 Thought people are using it for containers or minimal chroots 2025-03-01 16:05:45 frag: he wrote a screed about it somewhere in kitty's issue tracker, if you dig you'll probably find it 2025-03-01 16:06:27 some tmux people were clutching their pearls about it, which is mainly what i remember. 2025-03-01 16:07:27 application preferences are very sensitie subjects, smh.. 2025-03-01 16:07:38 for the record, i'm a tmux person, reluctantly. 2025-03-01 16:07:52 Try my suggestion and live happily ever after 2025-03-01 16:09:15 i don't want to replace tmux with anything, i want it gone 2025-03-01 16:09:49 its a nice way to organize shells, if you dont have dwm :> 2025-03-01 16:10:33 why do you use it then? 2025-03-01 16:10:37 Replacing it will effectively make it gone 2025-03-01 16:11:13 i mean, i want middle terminals gone :) 2025-03-01 16:11:39 and what do you want to do instead? 2025-03-01 16:11:49 therein lies the problem 2025-03-01 16:12:07 locally it's easy, just use a better wm (which i do, river)... but old habits die hard 2025-03-01 16:12:57 I use a whole DE, GNOME 2025-03-01 16:13:04 yeah, but most of my screens are running on headless systems 2025-03-01 16:13:21 Melamit[m]: Everything except network settings works fine 2025-03-01 16:13:24 But... 2025-03-01 16:13:36 I can easily replace alpine networking with networkmanager 2025-03-01 16:29:00 i had to look it up, but wezterm does its own multiplexing (which i haven't tried): https://github.com/wezterm/wezterm/blob/main/docs/multiplexing.md 2025-03-01 16:30:13 if posix doesn't have the answer, then imo ultimately it's up to the terminal to provide something, not shoving tmux/screen in the middle 2025-03-01 16:33:46 Do you mean a graphical windowing of virtual terminals? 2025-03-01 16:33:51 That exists 2025-03-01 16:34:01 But that's a different use-case 2025-03-01 16:44:00 no. the "unsolved problem" (which wezterm solved within itself) is having terminals on remote machines. and it did that by embedding ssh 2025-03-01 16:44:13 which is also terrible in its own way 2025-03-01 16:45:00 but this is where it's at. what's the least bad thing 2025-03-01 16:48:33 So it's a local list of remote mosh+abduco sessions 2025-03-01 16:48:53 And terminal muxing is done locally through graphical manager 2025-03-01 16:55:02 i don't use mosh, as i ssh-over-tor some % of the time 2025-03-01 16:55:24 rlwrap-ssh-over-tor, that is 2025-03-01 16:56:32 have gone quite offtopic. 2025-03-01 16:59:04 Morning, can fuse and fuse3 be installed at the same time without conflicting? 2025-03-01 17:15:28 invoked, it's the same topic :) 2025-03-01 17:15:43 Using same concepts, just different implementations 2025-03-01 17:16:31 pu, you can try: apk add fuse fuse3 2025-03-01 21:47:23 So can anyone advice starting kodi 'standalone' or 'kodi-gbm' via xinit? 2025-03-01 21:48:40 From the tty I'm able to 'kodi-gdm' the GUI starts nicely. Tried 'exec kodi-gdm' in '~/.xinitrc' but it 'can't start GUI'. 2025-03-01 21:52:01 I thought gdm only runs with root privileges 2025-03-01 21:59:33 Able to 'kodi-gdm' with a regular user. Looking for a way to start automatically at boot, via 'xinit' and no WM I was hoping. 2025-03-01 22:00:58 *gbm not 'gdm' 2025-03-01 22:02:46 Ah. The 'xinit' never going to start the 'gbm' will it? Is that what's wrong maybe. Don't really even know what this 'gbm' is meant to be actually. 2025-03-01 22:05:39 So probably need an alternative of some sorts to autostart the 'kodi-gbm' on a TTY. Or get it going via the 'kodi-standalone --windowing=x11' but so far other than the 'kodi-gbm' did not manage to start the GUI of a TTY other than the 'kodi-gbm'. 2025-03-01 22:06:07 Damn I really don't want/need a WM. 2025-03-01 22:16:09 Just found an init script for kodi see what happens when I enable it ;) 2025-03-01 22:31:33 Not sure what the kodi init script actually does. It's meant to 'kodi-gbm --standalone' under 'kodi' but not sure if does anything at all after being added to the runlevel 'default'. 2025-03-01 22:33:56 I think it actually quietly fail behind the scenes after a few retries as far as I can tell. It goes into 'stopped' status after a short while. 2025-03-02 01:04:07 As a curiosity, does anyone have any insight into how difficult it would be to create an iso or rootfs of alpine which was built on glibc as opposed to musl? 2025-03-02 01:04:48 I understand that it would require rebuilding every package against glibc, but surely that wouldn't be too difficult with the apkbuilds 2025-03-02 01:14:32 i don't have insights (but i also suspect it should be easy, perhaps depending on how recently somebody tried it) 2025-03-02 01:14:46 but i am curious as to the "why?" of it :) 2025-03-02 01:17:19 Well I quite like how alpine does things, but I just cant jump the ship to musl yet. I know there are ways to run glibc programs but if I have to manage all that, what if I just run it without musl in the first place? 2025-03-02 01:30:57 > surely that wouldn't be too difficult with the apkbuilds 2025-03-02 01:30:58 it would 2025-03-02 01:31:05 long time ago there was someone who went through that effort to modify all aports to build with glibc 2025-03-02 01:31:35 it's better to not use alpine for that, and better to use something like wolfi 2025-03-02 01:39:16 well thats only for containers though, I was thinking more to install on a desktop computer (I know its not the intended use of alpine, but I like apk) 2025-03-02 01:43:00 how is that not an intended use of alpine? 2025-03-02 01:43:18 most of my laptops/desktops use alpine 2025-03-02 01:57:08 "most of my laptops/desktops..." <- All of mine now, too. XFCE for me, GNOME for rest of family 2025-03-02 03:06:55 mikec, alpine Linux is a general purpose Linux distribution. i use it in all my desktops with sway. The limitation arises only when closed source/binary-only software/hardware is involved.. 2025-03-02 03:09:10 the only exceptions would be when upstreams provide some generic linux binaries but don't provide musl versions (eg tor browser). 2025-03-02 03:09:36 even appimage now has support for musl. 2025-03-02 03:14:30 are there any additional settings/packages needed to run appimages in alpine 2025-03-02 03:38:21 i don't know, i haven't tried it myself 2025-03-02 03:39:04 https://github.com/AppImage/type2-runtime 2025-03-02 03:41:58 Well if it wasn't for closed source software I would be using just straight alpine in all honesty, but because it exists and sometimes I have to use it I was thinking about this whole thing 2025-03-02 04:39:47 whenever you make progress do consider updating this page: https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Running_glibc_programs 2025-03-02 04:40:41 it's much easier to just host a glibc chroot and run apps from that 2025-03-02 04:48:57 alpine's repos are large enough, such that everything i need is properly packaged 2025-03-02 04:51:13 i don't think i've ever needed to download an external binary 2025-03-02 04:51:22 well I never came to a conclusion on my original question: how would I go about bootstrapping a glibc alpine system as a start? is there at least somewhere that would point me in the right direction without being too general? 2025-03-02 04:51:36 alpine is just not a glibc distro. 2025-03-02 04:52:08 a glibc distro could not be called "alpine linux"; now the question is, what things do you want to take from Alpine, when making your own glibc distro? 2025-03-02 04:53:58 well I would want apk, and probably not systemd (openrc, runit, and s6 all peak my interest), I would probably consider using busybox for as much as I could, I like the alpine installer 2025-03-02 04:54:16 a lot of alpine components 2025-03-02 04:55:12 if I did such a thing, it doesn't matter to me if its technically considered alpine or not, basically a glibc distro that is very similar to alpine would do it for me 2025-03-02 04:55:28 mikec: tbh, I would love to see such a distro too 2025-03-02 04:55:55 mikec: though i'd drop the busybox and use freebsd userland utilities or something (similar to how chimera does it) 2025-03-02 04:55:56 And that’s easier than learning to use bwrap or roll your own flatpaks? 2025-03-02 04:56:26 not necessarily easier but more fruitful if that makes sense 2025-03-02 04:56:37 Chimera Linux ❤️ 2025-03-02 04:56:40 I would get more out of it while being able to have a pure system 2025-03-02 04:58:14 What do you mean pure 2025-03-02 04:58:28 while Chimera looks great (honestly), it still uses musl so we are no closer than with alpine 2025-03-02 04:58:41 You mean not having more than one copy of different implementation of libc? 2025-03-02 04:59:24 no flatpaks, no chroots, basically not having to split my packages between things that work on alpine (or chimera) and things that dont and need this other system 2025-03-02 04:59:26 I don’t understand, why does that matter. Seems like an arbitrary line drawn 2025-03-02 04:59:56 yeah it is, but if it wasnt for people drawing arbitrary lines would we have so many interesting linux distros? 2025-03-02 05:00:42 You can unsandbox flatpaks quite a bit with flatpak permissions if that’s the problem , that’s going to be a lot easier to learn than making another distro from scratch 2025-03-02 05:01:14 and I not asking anyone to do this work for me (which is usually the problem with arbitrary lines), I'm just trying to figure out where I would learn to do it myself 2025-03-02 05:01:17 But it would be a cool project you will learn a lot 2025-03-02 05:02:05 history is littered with defunct linux distros. 2025-03-02 05:02:23 it's a lot more than just slapping some shit together 2025-03-02 05:02:43 no offense 2025-03-02 05:03:35 Oh I did have to have a distrobox for my editor, Zed. Well I do use vim primarily but sometimes I want to use a modern editor 2025-03-02 05:03:56 well a lot more in what sense, every distro is a bunch of components put together with a lot of work 2025-03-02 05:03:57 And so I have archlinux distrobox for one app 2025-03-02 05:04:14 but for one to be successful you do generally need a community and stuff like that 2025-03-02 05:04:48 support structure, package maintainers, etc 2025-03-02 05:05:08 everyone underestimates the infra side 2025-03-02 05:05:53 starting things is somewhat easy. committing to and sustaining like, a release every 6 months, and all that entails, is not easy 2025-03-02 05:05:53 thats fair 2025-03-02 05:06:26 perhaps it is a bit ignorant and arrogant of me to want to attempt such a thing 2025-03-02 05:07:27 it also takes people who know how to fix things to get releases out the door. i've seen this group here fix things upstream a bunch of times 2025-03-02 05:10:26 I recognize that, I remember a few years ago I was looking at kiss linux and thats when it first really clicked how much is involved in package maintenance 2025-03-02 05:10:28 i mean, don't let me discourage you from trying. you'll learn stuff. but realistically most of these efforts end up failing after a year or two 2025-03-02 05:11:06 even if that happens though, so what? I dont really expect anyone to be using this other than me 2025-03-02 05:11:15 fair 2025-03-02 05:11:23 if someone is then maybe they can help me maintain it a bit 2025-03-02 05:11:47 do you know where I would go to get started down that path though? 2025-03-02 05:12:00 if you haven't done lfs yet, you could maybe start there 2025-03-02 05:12:36 lfs = linux from scratch 2025-03-02 05:12:36 I had that in mind, the thing that got me though was layering package management on that 2025-03-02 05:12:59 I read a bit of the lfs notes on it, but it still wasn't super clear to me 2025-03-02 05:13:28 surely its more than just installing the dpkg or pacman binary and just putting the right files in /etc 2025-03-02 05:14:07 mikec: this video might interest you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDaSSArmRjk&t=977s 2025-03-02 05:14:17 it's lfn instead of lfs 2025-03-02 05:14:22 lfs = linux from nothing 2025-03-02 05:14:26 s/lfs/lfn 2025-03-02 05:15:38 yeah that actually seems like it would be helpful 2025-03-02 05:18:50 i would suggest studying a system that you want to use as a model (eg alpine) and understand how that whole system gets built from 0, set a few clear fixed goals of what you would do differently, and why, and then set out to work on those, and avoid mission creep along the way. 2025-03-02 05:19:25 how does one study something like that though? 2025-03-02 05:19:49 lfs seems like how a generic linux system gets built from 0 (or maybe 0.125 or something, I'm not sure) 2025-03-02 05:19:52 the repos are all there for you to fetch and study 2025-03-02 05:20:48 aren't those gonna be just how packages get, well packaged though 2025-03-02 05:21:09 I guess looking at the linux kernel apkbuild and things like that would probably help 2025-03-02 05:22:00 you asked for pointers that are not generalised, to build a distro, this is such a vast topic that it can't be point to a single howto with all steps listed 2025-03-02 05:23:06 thats a very fair point 2025-03-02 05:23:15 lfs is just like learning the bootstrap process, and after that it’s just ./configure --prefix=/usr —- in other words you `make install` directly to the root filesystem, rather than to a temporary path to build a package 2025-03-02 05:24:01 Of course the difference between packages and make installing to a rootfs is with package manager you have a system to log which “package” owns which file 2025-03-02 05:24:01 LFS describes and explains steps you need to undertake for building linux system, it's a necessary knowledge to know when, why and how to bootstrap certain components 2025-03-02 05:24:59 I suppose its just hard to tell what path to go down, and its such a long process that I want to make sure I choose the right one; seems like lfs is gonna be the right starting point for me though 2025-03-02 05:25:40 and when it very possibly doesnt turn out the way I wanted I will still have learned a lot 2025-03-02 05:25:40 constraints decide your path 2025-03-02 05:25:51 ACTION never got a working LFS because he either gave up or the system borked 2025-03-02 05:26:16 how well things actually work decide your path 2025-03-02 05:26:28 imo, lfs is bad for actual distro building 2025-03-02 05:26:38 Yeah I think once you get far enough with the LFS exercise to know how to bootstrap a toolchain, then you start over and start planning your actual distro 2025-03-02 05:26:48 It’s just an exercise 2025-03-02 05:27:35 see that is what makes it particularly intimidating, lfs is a long process just to have the privilege of starting over to do it right 2025-03-02 05:28:06 but I guess thats why not many people do it successfully 2025-03-02 05:28:13 I mean almost everything I ever did perfectly it was because I did it several times until it was perfect 2025-03-02 05:28:26 there are no shortcuts 2025-03-02 05:28:34 lfs speedrun any% wr 2025-03-02 05:29:17 on the bright side, at least one person on here said the end product distro I had in mind was appealing to them 2025-03-02 05:29:24 shawn: you really build a LFS system? did it boot on real hardware? 2025-03-02 05:29:36 basically you need to get to a point where you understand very well how the whole system is put together, and how to fix it down to the libc 2025-03-02 05:30:05 invoked: and lfs is the first steo to getting there right? 2025-03-02 05:30:11 *step 2025-03-02 05:30:14 mikec: there is a lot of people interested in such combination, it was never successfully provided 2025-03-02 05:30:38 possibly, i mean, in the absence of schooling or whatever 2025-03-02 05:31:07 pj: but is that because it fundamentally couldnt work or just because it takes lots of effort to do 2025-03-02 05:31:31 both, but also because people with no clue attempt to do it 2025-03-02 05:31:36 No I haven’t ghodawalaaman 2025-03-02 05:31:40 do they make schooling on linux distro creation? how can I take that class 2025-03-02 05:32:28 sorry, there is one attempt that succeded to make glibc alpine, it's wolfi-os 2025-03-02 05:32:52 if only it had an installable iso 2025-03-02 05:32:53 but it was made by people who knew what they were doing 2025-03-02 05:33:22 anything is installable if you know how 2025-03-02 05:33:38 alpine glibc wouldn't have iso either unless you know how to build it 2025-03-02 05:33:39 mikec: I would suggest take it slow first learn how Arch and Gentoo works and then try to go with LFS 2025-03-02 05:34:01 seems like my key takeaways are do lfs and make sure to majorly temper my expectations 2025-03-02 05:34:20 it's not as simple as just forking alpine and then swapping out musl with glibc. everything in alpine's tree is built with musl assumptions at the very least 2025-03-02 05:34:44 + software assumes glibc 2025-03-02 05:34:52 - alpine is patched for musl tho 2025-03-02 05:35:13 ghodawalaaman: I have been using arch for a couple of years, even if I dont act like it I have been using linux for probably 8-10 years at this point 2025-03-02 05:36:27 8-10 year! that's a lot, I have only used linux for 2 years 2025-03-02 05:36:41 I hope you have good understanding of command line and Linux then 2025-03-02 05:37:14 but i'm not sure you're even clear on why you feel like glibc is necessary, or what specifically you want to run with glibc that doesn't currently in alpine. 2025-03-02 05:37:53 anything pre-built 2025-03-02 05:38:14 (mitmproxy) 2025-03-02 05:38:15 It would be simpler to just learn how to make your own flatpaks 2025-03-02 05:38:25 well its not that I feel its necessary, its about as necessary as wanting to use apk over pacman or xbps or apt 2025-03-02 05:38:40 just that I'm interested in the concept 2025-03-02 05:39:54 hm. well to go back to what i mentioned previously, i think it would be helpful for you to set some clear goals (real problems you want to solve, and roughly how you want to solve them) 2025-03-02 05:40:52 otherwise you're gonna get lost in the weeds about how these systems are put together 2025-03-02 05:41:08 that's just for one arch. 2025-03-02 05:41:10 it's not only effort to learn and build, but also to maintain 2025-03-02 05:41:44 we have multiple people that bump, patch, review and commit for all the software 2025-03-02 05:41:58 it's not going to be 1:1 copy of updates from alpine to whatever-glibc-ism 2025-03-02 05:43:42 invoked: I'll take you up on that, build a few systems, play around with a few inits and see if I actually prefer one over the other, etc and jot down what I want the end product to be 2025-03-02 05:44:32 i'm old, you gotta hurry up 2025-03-02 05:44:51 panekj: with luck if I ever get to the end I'll have 1000x more respect for maintainers than I already do 2025-03-02 05:46:35 complete unrelated sidebar: while I'm not new to linux, I am pretty new to irc, when do people typically do a mention and not do one 2025-03-02 05:47:10