2024-01-18 19:18:27 <invoked> word
2024-01-18 19:18:32 <ikke> o/
2024-01-18 19:18:41 <invoked> i have to leave in a bit unfortunately
2024-01-18 19:31:16 <invoked> to be clear about what i've suggested in #alpine-offtopic: nothing would be moved out of the handbook. maybe a few things should get moved in. in any case, clarify the relationship between docs and wiki by linking out of docs by adding topics that the handbook does not cover.
2024-01-18 19:31:57 <invoked> moreover make it clearer to people on the wiki, like, "no warranties"
2024-01-18 19:32:11 <ikke> The handbook itself should mostly concentrate on things that directly involve Alpine
2024-01-18 19:32:17 <invoked> if it's in the handbook, it went through a review process
2024-01-18 19:33:15 <Ellenor> y'all hosers
2024-01-18 19:33:27 <invoked> ^ valued input
2024-01-18 19:35:27 <invoked> i'm not sure i'm even biased towards web documentation, but i'm sure it's what people expect.
2024-01-18 19:35:36 <invoked> my bias is towards man pages
2024-01-18 19:35:45 <ikke> man pages are mostly references though
2024-01-18 19:35:54 <invoked> true.
2024-01-18 19:36:09 <invoked> but maybe add some alpine flavor to intro
2024-01-18 19:36:13 <invoked> just a thought
2024-01-18 19:36:40 <ikke> They are not mutually exclusive
2024-01-18 19:39:15 <invoked> my perception of things is like, i started using alpine on metal, when the conversation seemed to be mostly about vms and containers.  nowadays though, it seems like there's a lot more conversation about laptops and sbcs
2024-01-18 19:39:43 <ikke> I think sbcs have always been popular, even since the rpi came out
2024-01-18 19:40:20 <invoked> for alpine also?
2024-01-18 19:40:27 <invoked> i guess you know the download numbers
2024-01-18 19:40:35 <ikke> I don't know the download numbers
2024-01-18 19:40:45 <ikke> but they have been the main drivers for arches like armhf and armv7
2024-01-18 19:40:56 <invoked> ah.
2024-01-18 19:43:27 <invoked> i'm not sure what alpine's long-term mission is. if it really wants to get into being all things to all people
2024-01-18 19:44:21 <invoked> it's part of the reason i haven't come in with PRs when i see problems on desktop. like, this isn't really alpine's thing, i should probably just kludge it and move on.
2024-01-18 19:45:36 <ikke> Well, there is little reason to not fix things if you can
2024-01-18 19:46:39 <invoked> just trying to avoid the bikeshed
2024-01-18 19:46:52 <invoked> bikeshed coloring
2024-01-18 19:46:57 <vkrishn> its more of how much resource/support, if someone can its always welcomed
2024-01-18 19:47:10 <ikke> We get a lot of desktop support through pmos
2024-01-18 19:48:38 <vkrishn> i would say, pick al as base, spin a desktop distro
2024-01-18 19:49:01 <vkrishn> build another community around it
2024-01-18 19:49:39 <invoked> maybe but that's assuming they'd have all their own repos and infra
2024-01-18 19:49:48 <invoked> and who's going to do it
2024-01-18 19:49:58 <vkrishn> gradually both community benifits
2024-01-18 19:50:24 <vkrishn> that's the question, resource/support
2024-01-18 19:50:29 <ikke> having the infra is the hardest part
2024-01-18 19:50:37 <invoked> yep
2024-01-18 19:51:41 <invoked> tbh, i'm kind of on the sunset end of things. i've been committer at freebsd, gentoo and elsewhere. even if i know how to do all of that, i don't have the time & energy anymore :-/
2024-01-18 19:52:32 <invoked> like i would probably be able to chip in a little on the docs idea i put forward, if people find it has merit
2024-01-18 19:52:57 <invoked> because i think that just eats up people's time on the other side (irc support, so on)
2024-01-18 19:53:25 <invoked> so this isn't my baby, but i think like a manager, i hate to see people's time get chewed up
2024-01-18 19:55:28 <invoked> it's almost my life's purpose now, to keep people from burning out.
2024-01-18 19:55:53 <invoked> it's happened too much, under my watch too, and i can't wash it off.
2024-01-18 19:57:10 <ikke> Yeah, burn-out is a real problem
2024-01-18 19:59:31 <invoked> i gotta run. caretaking duties. if you think the docs->wiki linking makes sense, i can help a bit. let me know
2024-01-18 20:00:46 <invoked> btw i get that docs should be focused mainly on what alpine provides. maybe the thing to do in the short term is make the wiki stuff more explicit that it's zero-warranty
2024-01-18 20:03:02 <vkrishn> or improve by adding al version to page or each section
2024-01-18 20:05:09 <invoked> the problem, as i see it, is that the wiki is outside of gitlab
2024-01-18 20:05:23 <invoked> gitlab is where the work is, the review process, et al
2024-01-18 20:05:44 <ikke> indeed
2024-01-18 21:49:43 <ncopa> would it be an idea to move the wiki to gitlab wiki?
2024-01-18 21:50:33 <ncopa> i know mediawiki is pretty powerful when it comes to maintain the pages, find referenced pages, move pages etc
2024-01-18 21:51:37 <ncopa> or maybe we could move the handbook to gitlab wiki?
2024-01-18 21:53:36 <chereskata> i like the idea of the whole wiki to be git based
2024-01-18 21:54:38 <ncopa> same
2024-01-18 21:55:20 <ncopa> invoked: i think contributing to docs one way or the other would be valuable
2024-01-18 21:55:38 <chereskata> i like for example the openbsd doc quality
2024-01-18 21:55:45 <chereskata> they keep a lot in man pages
2024-01-18 21:55:45 <ncopa> yeah
2024-01-18 21:56:07 <chereskata> maybe an in tree wiki would be useful and package unspecific guides also gitbased as a handbook
2024-01-18 21:56:18 <chereskata> the info now is scattered and duplicated
2024-01-18 21:57:34 <ncopa> i think people write reference type of docs in wiki, because it is lacking other places
2024-01-18 21:57:39 <ncopa> and its easy to contribute there
2024-01-18 21:58:51 <ncopa> man pages are reference docs. I think we have man pages for lots of stuff, maybe most?
2024-01-18 21:59:10 <chereskata> i like this approach a lot
2024-01-18 21:59:33 <ncopa> but I think we should have an official user guide, admin guide or something official
2024-01-18 21:59:41 <chereskata> maybe use a md -> mandoc converter?
2024-01-18 21:59:43 <ncopa> and official developer docs
2024-01-18 21:59:51 <chereskata> i find both to be super important
2024-01-18 22:00:01 <chereskata> i research for open source alternatives to gitbook
2024-01-18 22:00:03 <ncopa> yeah, i think md as source for mandoc makes sense
2024-01-18 22:00:23 <ncopa> the official guides can reference to man pages
2024-01-18 22:00:41 <ncopa> they dont need to be "complete", but can point user to man docs
2024-01-18 22:00:59 <ncopa> for all details
2024-01-18 22:01:19 <chereskata> this sounds super
2024-01-18 22:01:38 <ncopa> the idea is that this doc can help you get started with things, and tell user where to find to complete reference
2024-01-18 22:01:54 <ncopa> thats the idea of docs.alpinelinux.org
2024-01-18 22:01:56 <chereskata> for example i installed my alpine desktop following a mix of three different wiki guides
2024-01-18 22:03:05 <ncopa> man pages can ref to other man pages, but shouldnt need to reference to the handbook
2024-01-18 22:03:13 <ncopa> link to handbook i mean
2024-01-18 22:03:28 <chereskata> this makes total sense, because they describe domain specific parts 
2024-01-18 22:03:31 <ncopa> also handbook should not link to wiki.alpinelinux.org
2024-01-18 22:03:44 <ncopa> but wiki.a.o should link to handbook and manpages
2024-01-18 22:03:44 <chereskata> +1
2024-01-18 22:04:02 <chereskata> should i open an issue in gitlab where we can permanently discuss the topic?
2024-01-18 22:04:15 <ncopa> i think thats a good idea
2024-01-18 22:04:39 <ncopa> what we really need is someone who can take responsibility for it, and follow up
2024-01-18 22:04:51 <ncopa> and organize a docs team
2024-01-18 22:05:00 <ncopa> help involve more people to contribute to docs
2024-01-18 22:05:11 <chereskata> i feel the need to improve documentation
2024-01-18 22:05:12 <ncopa> we had a few in the past
2024-01-18 22:05:45 <ncopa> i have felt the need of improving the docs for years, but there is not enough hours on a day
2024-01-18 22:06:06 <chereskata> before that i would like to do two things: improve mkinitfs nlplug-findfs to have a source code file per filesystem and then add dm-integrity support
2024-01-18 22:06:10 <ncopa> i barely manage to keep my head above the surface
2024-01-18 22:06:15 <chereskata> after that i want to bring torbrowser
2024-01-18 22:06:59 <ncopa> i haven't had energy to start look at the dm-integrity thing yet
2024-01-18 22:07:02 <chereskata> i feel your issue. On the flip side alpine is somewhat of a niche distro that delivers and does not talk a lot (my feeling)
2024-01-18 22:07:31 <ncopa> heh. thanks!
2024-01-18 22:08:49 <chereskata> you're welcome. I love the result driven folks here :)
2024-01-18 22:09:51 <ncopa> we do have a docs team lead (nangel), but I don't think he has the needed time to do anything nowadays
2024-01-18 22:10:31 <ncopa> and before nangel we had chloe (who wrote the current handbook), but she also left
2024-01-18 22:11:08 <ncopa> i think that maybe the current docs.a.o is a bit to hard (for the right people) to contribute to
2024-01-18 22:11:57 <chereskata> unfortunately documentation comes last. I appreciate all the work in the wiki and transferring the info to man page and the handbook will help prolive the info further
2024-01-18 22:12:20 <chereskata> also having a git bound man and handbook helps to keep the code changes in sync with the doc
2024-01-18 22:12:29 <chereskata> (at least in theory)
2024-01-18 22:17:29 <ncopa> manpages are easier to keep up to date, as they can easily be updated together with the code
2024-01-18 22:17:44 <ncopa> yeah
2024-01-18 22:17:55 <ncopa> actually, that is a pretty good point there
2024-01-18 22:18:36 <ncopa> the sources for the install guide should probably be with alpine-conf, where the setup scripts are
2024-01-18 22:18:44 <chereskata> yes, that is true. It would be interesting if some codesegments in the handbook could be linked to commit states or smth
2024-01-18 22:19:20 <chereskata> https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/docs/developer-handbook/-/issues/7
2024-01-18 22:19:41 <ncopa> im thinking the docs for unattended instals should go with tiny-cloud docs
2024-01-18 22:19:42 <ncopa> but...
2024-01-18 22:20:15 <ncopa> tiny-cloud is not alpine specific, at least that is the goal afaik
2024-01-18 22:20:33 <ncopa> so it doesnt make sense to have alpine specific stuff there
2024-01-18 22:20:34 <chereskata> i have never used it, because i only operate on bare metal 
2024-01-18 22:20:47 <chereskata> i would unfotunately go afk for today :)
2024-01-18 22:20:52 <chereskata> *:/
2024-01-18 22:20:58 <ncopa> have a nice evening!
2024-01-18 22:21:00 <ncopa> thanks!
2024-01-18 22:21:03 <chereskata> thanks for the nice discussion!
2024-01-18 22:21:11 <chereskata> for you too!
2024-01-18 22:21:26 <ncopa> so thinking out loud, it makes absolutely best sense to have man pages for tiny-cloud
2024-01-18 22:22:16 <ncopa> have an alpine specific guide for how to use tiny-cloud in alpine context (et unattended installs), and link to tiny-cloud man pages for full reference
2024-01-19 01:38:27 <zcrayfish> Can we get a bump on https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Copyright ?
2024-01-19 01:39:00 <zcrayfish> I do believe that accepts wikimarkup, so suggest changing `2021` to something like {{REVISIONYEAR:Template:AlpineLatest}} or even {{CURRENTYEAR}}
2024-01-19 01:39:07 <zcrayfish> then it never has to be messed with again. :p
2024-01-19 18:29:26 <invoked> gitlab's wiki sucks, no other way to put it
2024-01-19 18:29:53 <invoked> wikijs can use gitlab as a backend, that might be food for thought
2024-01-19 18:30:06 <ikke> Yeah, no MRs at all for wikis iirc
2024-01-19 18:30:37 <invoked> well just the wiki itself in terms of how it works is a joke. it's barely better than nothing.
2024-01-19 18:31:36 <invoked> but wikijs on the other hand, is decent and integrated with gitlab, i think it can follow the usual review process
2024-01-19 18:31:46 <invoked> i'm not 100% sure about that, though
2024-01-19 18:35:40 <invoked> https://docs.requarks.io/storage/git  this says "coming soon!" but https://cfreeman.cloud/wiki-js-on-docker-with-gitlab-storage-backend/ is one way to do it.
2024-01-19 18:36:02 <invoked> scroll down for self-hosted gitlab
2024-01-19 18:40:11 <invoked> i think importing from mediawiki might be a pita, however.
2024-01-19 18:40:29 <invoked> probably will lose page history, at the very least.
2024-01-19 18:41:10 <ikke> And links will break as well
2024-01-19 18:41:16 <ikke> which I'm not a fan of
2024-01-19 18:41:43 <invoked> but one backend to rule them all
2024-01-19 18:41:47 <invoked> :)
2024-01-19 18:42:51 <invoked> opinions being what they are, if wikijs + gitlab works as expected, the tradeoffs would be worth it
2024-01-19 18:43:12 <invoked> just a short term headache
2024-01-19 18:50:18 <vkrishn> don't know about it, maybe setup in readonly mode first 
2024-01-19 18:51:39 <vkrishn> does it use gitlab api ?
2024-01-19 18:52:06 <ikke> apparently it does
2024-01-19 18:52:09 <ikke> it needs the API url
2024-01-19 18:53:18 <invoked> i think MRs and stuff will work, but what isn't clear is if we use social auth for wikijs instead of requiring a gitlab account, how that works.
2024-01-19 18:53:27 <invoked> or if it does.