2021-05-01 15:42:30 <dj1> Hello.
2021-05-01 15:42:57 <dj1> Is anybody experienced in setting up al on pis?
2021-05-01 15:43:25 <ikke> dj1: This channel is about working on alpine linux documentation, for general support, there is #alpine-linux
2021-05-01 15:46:30 <dj1> Havent seen that on the channel list ...
2021-05-01 15:46:40 <ikke> it still exists :)
2021-05-01 15:48:38 <dj1> ... but thank you.
2021-05-02 18:18:26 <fuguenine> In #alpine-linux:
2021-05-02 18:18:26 <fuguenine> > I have quite a few old and slow machines. Alpine with Xfce seems to work well. For donating, I'm writing the default password on a taped note on the laptops. Right now I have 2 main problems: —"—
2021-05-02 18:18:26 <fuguenine> > Is there an easy way to provide offline docs+wiki of alpine? I guess I'll gen the docs myself, and wget --mirror the wiki. | I'd hoped for a package to install to get at least the docs.
2021-05-02 18:19:38 <fuguenine> Would a package for the docs be doable? Snapshots/dumps of the wiki could and should be packaged as well.
2021-05-02 18:22:28 <fuguenine> Other topic I'd want to ask about is the inclusion of a source link in the docs. It took me 2-3m to even find the source. Links → https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine seems like a good idea.
2021-05-02 18:23:54 <fuguenine> It seems that SpaceToast wrote the docs 2y ago, and they haven't been since updated, I'd like to say, at all.
2021-05-26 12:50:17 <msiism> Hey, Handbook people. Great effort. I contributed to the Alpine wiki a couple of years back, but most of that was later destroyed by that wiki hooligan who had already been banned from Devuan's wiki beefore he took to Alpine's.
2021-05-26 12:50:37 <msiism> Anyway, I think I have a suggestion concerning the Handbook's outline.
2021-05-26 12:51:34 <msiism> I'd say that calling the second chapter "Installation medium" is a bit illogical. Here's why:
2021-05-26 12:52:18 <msiism> The steps you have to take (on an abstract level) to install the system are: Download an image, verify it, install stuff.
2021-05-26 12:53:29 <msiism> And, choosing your image is actually part of the Download step, or a prerequisite to that.
2021-05-26 12:54:53 <msiism> Also, choosing the image is not merely about choosing an installation medium, is it?
2021-05-26 12:55:19 <SpaceToast> the installation medium is two things - some data, and the storage it's put on
2021-05-26 12:55:31 <SpaceToast> the image is the data, and therefore part of the installation medium
2021-05-26 12:57:19 <msiism> Isn't that making it more complicated than it needs to be? I mean, thos ISO images are all hybrid anyway, are they not?
2021-05-26 12:58:56 <msiism> So, if I'm not mistaken, all you really have to do as far as downloading goes, is choose your prefered image.
2021-05-26 13:00:17 <msiism> Whether you choose to put than on a CD because your machine cannot boot from USB, or use a spare external hard drive or whatnot shouldn't really matter.
2021-05-26 13:08:08 <msiism> I'd think it would probably be better to have "Getting Alpine" (meaning: 1) choose image, 2) download, 3) verify) and then "Creating an installation medium".
2021-05-26 13:11:04 <msiism> "Booting from the installation medium" could them be made the first step in the "Installing" chapter.
2021-05-26 13:12:04 <SpaceToast> you can install alpine from basically whatever if you try hard enough, i.e the installation medium (i.e including custom ones) has nothing to do with the actual installation process
2021-05-26 13:12:19 <SpaceToast> a fully manual version (with `apk --root`) could be added at some point as well, complicating that further
2021-05-26 13:12:28 <msiism> Right.
2021-05-26 13:12:55 <SpaceToast> so far I'm mostly just seeing semantic complaints here, on the basis that you have an internal schema for what a medium is
2021-05-26 13:13:24 <msiism> Well, it's just a bunch of structural suggestions.
2021-05-26 13:13:26 <SpaceToast> while that's not entirely invalid, it's pretty common parlance around linux anyways, though sure, it could be changed to something like "bootable image" and "installation medium" to refer purely to the physical component
2021-05-26 13:14:13 <SpaceToast> your suggestions so far are: 1. rename second chapter to "Getting Alpine" (which is a misnomer), and 2. moving the booting of the installation medium into the install section (which I just explained why it's incorrect)
2021-05-26 13:14:17 <SpaceToast> am I missing anything?
2021-05-26 13:14:53 <msiism> Why would my first suggestion be a misnomer?
2021-05-26 13:15:33 <SpaceToast> a bootable image of alpine is not the same thing as alpine
2021-05-26 13:15:43 <msiism> Okay…
2021-05-26 13:15:45 <SpaceToast> when most people think of "getting ubuntu", they don't think of downloading a .iso and keeping it on their disk
2021-05-26 13:15:48 <SpaceToast> they think of installing it
2021-05-26 13:16:00 <SpaceToast> consequently, "Getting Alpine" but then needing to install it separately is a logical clash
2021-05-26 13:16:07 <SpaceToast> though of course, this depends on the schema you have
2021-05-26 13:16:13 <SpaceToast> i.e it's also a purely semantical issue
2021-05-26 13:18:11 <msiism> Well, I mean, it might be me, but getting something and then having to install that thing is really not unusal at all, especially with technical stuff.
2021-05-26 13:18:56 <msiism> Also, when there is an extra main chapter "Installing", it should be pretty clear that those are different.
2021-05-26 13:19:06 <msiism> But, yeah, maybe "Getting Alpine" would not be the best title.
2021-05-26 13:19:59 <SpaceToast> sure, but your complaint about the title to begin with works out exactly the same
2021-05-26 13:20:05 <SpaceToast> "installation medium" is common parlance in distributions
2021-05-26 13:20:26 <SpaceToast> I'm not really attached to the name, but splitting hairs like this over base semantics isn't conducive to doing anything of substance
2021-05-26 13:20:26 <msiism> Sure, I have no problem with that term at all.
2021-05-26 13:21:15 <msiism> I was merely trying to suggest a bit of a different structure for the Handbook.
2021-05-26 13:23:33 <msiism> I mean, sure, these steps are all, arguably, part of creating an installation medium.
2021-05-26 13:23:56 <msiism> But then, maybe that chapter should be called "Creating an istallation medium".
2021-05-26 13:24:11 <SpaceToast> you had two suggestions: 1. changing the name (I have explained why this isn't useful); 2. moving one section into the install section (I explained, several times, why this wouldn't work out)
2021-05-26 13:24:34 <msiism> Because, for example "Burning" is kind of a misnomer, don't you think?
2021-05-26 13:24:35 <SpaceToast> when I address one, you start talking about the other
2021-05-26 13:24:44 <SpaceToast> "burning" is established terminology
2021-05-26 13:24:59 <SpaceToast> if you want to change the established terminology, go for it, but is an installation handbook *really* the place to start?
2021-05-26 13:25:07 <msiism> Oh, is it? For USB flash devices?
2021-05-26 13:25:35 <SpaceToast> you might have noticed the "Burning to a CD/DVD" bit ;)
2021-05-26 13:26:01 <SpaceToast> maybe the outline could become "Using the Image", but again, this is splitting hairs, anyone that clicks on it (or is reading the text as a whole) will know exactly what's going on
2021-05-26 13:26:26 <msiism> Yeah, I've noticed the CD/DVD part.
2021-05-26 13:26:37 <SpaceToast> coincidentally, that's where it is established terminology
2021-05-26 13:26:45 <msiism> Well, I wasn't meaning to bikeshed your work, really.
2021-05-26 13:27:07 <SpaceToast> just think about, well, the overall impact
2021-05-26 13:27:20 <msiism> What would it be?
2021-05-26 13:27:22 <SpaceToast> it's basically 0
2021-05-26 13:27:38 <msiism> Okay, disagree 100%.
2021-05-26 13:27:40 <msiism> But, fair.
2021-05-26 13:27:42 <SpaceToast> because people clicking on it, or reading the text
2021-05-26 13:27:45 <SpaceToast> will know what's going on
2021-05-26 13:27:53 <SpaceToast> the max possible impact is them being able to find that section faster next time
2021-05-26 13:28:12 <msiism> Is there a source repository of this Handbook?
2021-05-26 13:28:15 <SpaceToast> given the size of that impact, is it worth the whole conversation we've been having so far?
2021-05-26 13:28:33 <SpaceToast> https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/docs
2021-05-26 13:28:56 <msiism> Well, I'm a semi-professional accused hair-splitter. So, it's totally worth it for me.
2021-05-26 13:29:00 <msiism> Okay, thanks.
2021-05-26 13:29:10 <SpaceToast> anyway, as for burning ISOs to USBs...
2021-05-26 13:29:27 <SpaceToast> https://www.howtogeek.com/414574/how-to-burn-an-iso-file-to-a-usb-drive-in-linux/ https://askubuntu.com/questions/59551/how-to-burn-a-windows-iso-to-a-usb-device and so on
2021-05-26 13:29:40 <SpaceToast> it's established only because CDs/DVDs existed in the past, sure, but it is still used pretty often
2021-05-26 13:29:52 <msiism> I think, maybe, if I maintain a fork that tries t keep up with the original to demonstrate how I'd do it, that could mybe help.
2021-05-26 13:30:01 <SpaceToast> knock yourself out
2021-05-26 13:30:24 <SpaceToast> I wouldn't mind merging the good parts, just, yknow
2021-05-26 13:30:32 <msiism> :)
2021-05-26 13:30:40 <SpaceToast> you walk in, say wording X works better for you, someone else walks in, says wording Y works better for them
2021-05-26 13:31:02 <SpaceToast> you're not the first one to ask for stuff to be moved or renamed, and it's generally just whatever works best for their schema (but not the industry as a whole)
2021-05-26 13:31:11 <msiism> Industry?
2021-05-26 13:33:33 <msiism> Anyway, about "burning to a USB stick". I mean, just because everyone says that, it's not necessarily right.
2021-05-26 13:33:41 <SpaceToast> sure, and like I said
2021-05-26 13:33:45 <SpaceToast> if you want to go around changing established terms
2021-05-26 13:33:47 <SpaceToast> that's fine
2021-05-26 13:33:50 <SpaceToast> but is this *really* the place to start?
2021-05-26 13:34:08 <msiism> It's a bit like "no one" having a clue that "media" is plural. (Speaking from experience.)
2021-05-26 13:34:17 <msiism> I thought it was a good place to contribute.
2021-05-26 13:34:47 <msiism> But yeah, those contribtuions might be indirect. Fine with me.
2021-05-26 13:35:49 <msiism> By the way (I'll stop in a second, no worries.), the term I'd use is "apply the image to the medium".
2021-05-26 13:36:44 <msiism> …meaning the storage medium.
2021-05-26 13:41:03 <msiism> Just for reference, OpenBSD's installation guide somewhat follows that I had in mind: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html