2019-04-03 11:08:52 <ncopa> danieli: tianon offered to help move docs from gliderlabs to alpinelinux: https://github.com/docker-library/docs/pull/1456#issue-265079425
2019-04-03 11:09:28 <ncopa> danieli: i think both you and me are fairly busy with other stuff so i think it may be good to accept his offer
2019-04-03 11:10:04 <danieli> ncopa: there are a bunch of things that changed both in terms of CI and building, so yeah, that might be best
2019-04-03 11:10:09 <danieli> that'll ensure it gets done fairly quickly for sure
2019-04-03 11:11:23 <ncopa> looks like I misread
2019-04-03 11:11:33 <ncopa> he only ask about that specific PR
2019-04-03 11:17:10 <danieli> "Anything you'd like me to change while I'm in here? (I don't mind making more changes if you want, or if you'd rather take over and make these changes yourself -- happy to help!)"
2019-04-03 11:17:19 <danieli> looks like they're offering help with other things as well
2019-04-03 11:30:17 <ncopa> danieli: i suggest that you create a WIP or draft PR on https://github.com/alpinelinux/docker-alpine
2019-04-03 11:30:26 <ncopa> with the docs you have
2019-04-03 11:30:35 <ncopa> and we ask tianon to help us clean it up
2019-04-03 11:30:50 <danieli> all right, will do
2019-04-03 11:31:23 <ncopa> otherwise i will ask in #alpine-devel or #alpine-linux for help with it
2019-04-03 11:31:37 <ncopa> there should be enough volunteers who may want help with that
2019-04-03 14:53:51 <mr-robot> HI
2019-04-04 04:41:27 <SpaceToast> we're a couple of days past the last interaction with the ML RFC; looks like any concerns raised have been dealt with (except the proposed diff, will probably add that in shortly) - so what's next?
2019-04-04 08:48:50 <ncopa> morning.
2019-04-04 08:49:01 <ncopa> SpaceToast. I was thinking the same. whats next? :)
2019-04-04 08:49:25 <ncopa> i think we need to set the "constitution"
2019-04-04 08:50:12 <ncopa> rules about who can make decisions about new rules and change rules
2019-04-04 08:50:23 <ncopa> and how changing rules is done
2019-04-04 09:20:34 <_ikke_> And make clear who can agree on the new rules
2019-04-04 09:20:40 <_ikke_> currently
2019-04-04 09:30:02 <ncopa> i think it may make sense to present the new "constituion" for the entire community, and let everyone have their say
2019-04-04 09:30:10 <ncopa> so everyone feel that they have been listened to
2019-04-04 09:32:40 <ncopa> if we can get consensus that we can give a small group (3?)  authority to make decisions on behalf of the community, then it will probably be easier/faster to make decisions later in th eprocess
2019-04-04 11:52:10 <SpaceToast> ncopa: well we kind of have that at this point, no?
2019-04-04 11:52:49 <SpaceToast> decisions can be made by a vote of all the admins, by popular vote (handled by the small group) or (in extreme circumstances) by the small group directly
2019-04-04 19:03:13 <SpaceToast> well, based on that, I think we should finalize the current state of beta.docs.a.o/developer-handbook/, remove anything that's not needed for bootstrapping, and post on the devel ML (with the same "just ack is fine" stuff)?
2019-04-04 19:06:01 <SpaceToast> candidates for removal: Project-Specific Resources (that can be a base team policy), Removals Due to Inactivity (same)
2019-04-04 19:06:05 <SpaceToast> can't really think of anything else
2019-04-05 07:19:42 <ncopa> i like that. try decide on only the bare minimum needed for bootstrap
2019-04-05 07:20:09 <ncopa> But when asking for ACK on that, we should also tell what the plan ahead is. where we want to end up
2019-04-05 07:20:28 <ncopa> and tell that we want take smaller steps
2019-04-05 14:50:30 <SpaceToast> okay, so trim down what we have now, then post an RFC, explaining that this is a bootstrap spec (only specifies overall structure and how to make more policies)
2019-04-05 14:50:59 <SpaceToast> and that the expectation is to get someone to hold elections for base, for base to then establish currently existing teams, those teams to be filled by their admins and their policies written down
2019-04-05 14:51:16 <SpaceToast> after which point bootstrapping is complete and we can function as per spec
2019-04-05 14:51:22 <SpaceToast> do I have that right?
2019-04-05 14:52:23 <SpaceToast> question now, I guess, becomes: "at which point do we decide that it's ratified" - clearly participation is not so high, so do we simply have a time limit? who decides on it? etc
2019-04-05 14:53:51 <ncopa> yes, i think the above is a good way forward
2019-04-05 14:54:05 <ncopa> i dont know if we may want rename "base"?
2019-04-05 14:54:29 <SpaceToast> I think base makes sense to a certain extent
2019-04-05 14:54:40 <ncopa> im my mind we want separate admin committee and tech committee
2019-04-05 14:54:47 <ncopa> because they are different skillset
2019-04-05 14:54:55 <ncopa> even if we initially reuse the same ppl
2019-04-05 14:55:11 <SpaceToast> the idea is that each team's admins effectively represent their team within the larger project
2019-04-05 14:55:17 <SpaceToast> it's less of a "committee" thing
2019-04-05 14:55:38 <SpaceToast> and the idea of base is that they technically own the whole thing (but are meant to leave all day-to-day tasks to teams)
2019-04-05 14:55:42 <ncopa> how about a community council thing?
2019-04-05 14:55:53 <SpaceToast> well that could simply be a community management team :)
2019-04-05 14:57:03 <_ikke_> You need some entity that steers the overal direction of alpine
2019-04-05 14:57:04 <ncopa> ok, so base is like something that correponds to the fedora steering commitee https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fesco/
2019-04-05 14:57:54 <SpaceToast> _ikke_: that's what base is - they can always interfere and pick something (though they're only expected to do that if something is seriously wrong), and if admins can't do a 2/3 majority (or someone wants to go to it directly), they have the option to just decide the matter instead of holding a popular vote
2019-04-05 14:58:14 <SpaceToast> that's kind of the reason for the name - it's effectively the foundation (but that word has very different connotations, including legal ones, thus "base")
2019-04-05 14:58:21 <_ikke_> Right, though I think base is kind of vague
2019-04-05 14:58:31 <ncopa> i think the community management team, that may have responsibility of CoC and enforcement of it, may need decision power over any tech board/commitee/team
2019-04-05 14:59:18 <SpaceToast> we want to limit "X > Y in all cases" since that opens it up to power abuse
2019-04-05 14:59:27 <SpaceToast> Base has that because base is elected and has countermeasures
2019-04-05 14:59:51 <SpaceToast> I'd say that the community management team can open up votes just like everybody else, and if they think the vote results are incorrect they can push it to base, who can decide the matter outright
2019-04-05 15:00:11 <ncopa> tech lead/board/base/whatever that handles the day to day decisions, but those people should not need to deal with conflicts etc
2019-04-05 15:00:14 <SpaceToast> that way base can determine whether or not the community management team is reaching too far, or if they're correct
2019-04-05 15:00:22 <ncopa> nor need to deal with what rules we implement
2019-04-05 15:00:27 <SpaceToast> base doesn't handle day-to-day decisions
2019-04-05 15:00:41 <SpaceToast> each individual team handles their day-to-day decisions internally
2019-04-05 15:00:51 <ncopa> right. agree
2019-04-05 15:00:59 <SpaceToast> anything that impacts the entire project is voted on by the admins (representatives of all the teams) of the entire project
2019-04-05 15:01:05 <SpaceToast> that's already past day to day :)
2019-04-05 15:01:21 <SpaceToast> and even then, base only enters if the vote fails (no 2/3 majority) *and* someone requests it
2019-04-05 15:01:39 <SpaceToast> so base handling extreme cases like "we have to punt X out because they keep breaking the CoC" seems correct
2019-04-05 15:02:06 <SpaceToast> note that there IS a provision to skip the admin vote process that the community team could utilize
2019-04-05 15:02:30 <SpaceToast> but I really don't expect such extreme measures to happen often, and if they do perhaps there's a deeper-seated problem
2019-04-05 15:51:48 <SpaceToast> (basically, the idea is that base (the elected body) knows best, and will know to listen even to individual complaints about harassment and such (even without a dedicated all-encompassing enforcement body), and even moreso if the complaint comes from a body that actually handles that)
2019-04-05 15:52:32 <SpaceToast> I'll try and remove the final extraneous bits and draft a message to the ML (with the roadmap) today, and try to make sure I didn't miss anything Monday (since you'll be asleep by then)
2019-04-06 16:08:36 <danieli> SpaceToast: what do we want in place of the Product/Service/Resource A/B/C thing?
2019-04-06 16:08:37 <danieli> in the menu
2019-04-06 16:13:19 <SpaceToast> danieli: I'm thinking something similar to the top menu on a.o, but including a link to a.o (maybe leftmost as a <a><img>)
2019-04-06 16:13:27 <SpaceToast> but basically just links to other .a.o sites
2019-04-06 16:13:35 <danieli> could do something along the lines of the other alpine sites
2019-04-06 16:13:37 <danieli> ^
2019-04-06 16:13:51 <SpaceToast> :)
2019-04-07 18:43:24 <danieli> I modified the Antora theme very slightly, I can upload it somewhere for you
2019-04-07 18:43:33 <danieli> honestly didn't edit a lot
2019-04-07 18:43:34 <danieli> @ SpaceToast
2019-04-07 18:45:54 <danieli> ignore the "Project XYZ  5.2" part, it's from the example data, and stayed up there because its position is fixed, the full page screenshot isn't perfect https://imgur.com/a/3yHBwFR
2019-04-07 19:05:29 <SpaceToast> danieli: does the left navigation panel go down?
2019-04-07 19:05:36 <SpaceToast> (or does it stay kind of up in the air like that?)
2019-04-07 19:05:58 <danieli> it's fixed to the viewport
2019-04-07 19:06:01 <SpaceToast> ideally, we'd like to remake it entirely (e.g so that navigation doesn't *necessitate* js) but I think this is just fine in the interim (assuming navigation drops down)
2019-04-07 19:06:05 <SpaceToast> ok, that's fine then!
2019-04-07 19:06:24 <danieli> i've just edited the default one very slightly
2019-04-07 19:06:37 <SpaceToast> I can tell, but that's perfectly fine in the interim :) (potentially for a while, even)
2019-04-07 19:06:48 <danieli> it's just that the full page screenshot thing I use is a little off when it comes to css `position: fixed` elements
2019-04-07 19:06:51 <SpaceToast> if you could get a git repo somewhere I'll push it to docs/alpine-antora-ui (after creating it)
2019-04-07 19:06:59 <SpaceToast> and do the migration later today
2019-04-07 19:07:02 <danieli> https://imgur.com/a/YcVG6UD
2019-04-07 19:07:33 <SpaceToast> (I'm taking today mostly off, except maybe late night, lots of unfortunate things happened and I need my stress levels to go down)
2019-04-07 19:07:51 <SpaceToast> but definitely do put it up somewhere (or even docs/alpine-antora-ui if you can make that)
2019-04-07 19:08:17 <danieli> no worries, take your time
2019-04-07 19:08:25 <SpaceToast> :) ty
2019-04-07 19:08:43 <SpaceToast> I'm off now, but again - looks good enough to publish with (until we make something *really* nice from scratch)
2019-04-07 19:09:09 <danieli> making it from scratch will take quite a while
2019-04-07 19:09:33 <danieli> we have a lot on our plates and messing with node isn't always trivial
2019-04-07 19:10:03 <SpaceToast> yeah, that's why I said it's good enough to publish with ^^
2019-04-07 19:10:09 <SpaceToast> making the from-scratch one isn't a priority
2019-04-07 19:10:14 <SpaceToast> main concern is js-required-for-nav
2019-04-07 19:10:28 <danieli> that's because of the dropdown
2019-04-07 19:10:31 <SpaceToast> but that can simply be a known issue, if someone has a problem with it they could always contribute, eh?
2019-04-07 19:10:36 <SpaceToast> the menu too
2019-04-07 19:10:43 <danieli> ah yes
2019-04-07 19:10:45 <SpaceToast> I recall it being possible to CSS your way into dropdowns but it's non-trivial
2019-04-07 19:10:49 <danieli> navigation, fragment-jumper, page-versions, mobile-navbar
2019-04-07 19:10:57 <danieli> yes, it's not trivial either
2019-04-08 00:07:01 <SpaceToast> ncopa: for when you wake up; I updated the developer handbook (removed the two sections I mentioned) and drafted this for the ML; does it look alright? https://brpaste.xyz/crr6zw
2019-04-09 11:53:56 <danieli> ncopa: what is the "base" team? did SpaceToast change some terminology again?
2019-04-09 11:55:42 <_ikke_> s/core/base
2019-04-09 12:23:24 <ncopa> its the team replacing "core" team
2019-04-09 12:23:56 <ncopa> i think it needs be better named
2019-04-09 13:32:28 <kunkku> how about "junta"? :)
2019-04-09 13:32:59 <ddevault> I agree that base isn't the best name
2019-04-09 13:33:33 <ddevault> the reason it was selected, iirc
2019-04-09 13:33:53 <ddevault> is because the "core team" today already exists and has a large membership, and is incompatible with the design of the base team
2019-04-09 13:34:13 <ddevault> and I think WorkingToast feared politics may ensure if we tried to remove people from "core" and put them in some other team so we could redefine core
2019-04-09 13:45:11 <SpaceToast> wew, multiple disconnects, awful
2019-04-09 13:49:40 <clandmeter> you too?
2019-04-09 13:52:18 <SpaceToast> yeah, might just be weather
2019-04-09 13:52:34 <SpaceToast> had electricity outages at home yesterday, the DC my ZNC's in might have had similar problems
2019-04-09 13:53:20 <SpaceToast> ncopa, ddevault: "Base" was made a new name because "Core" had to get split into two parts (administrative, and packaging)
2019-04-09 13:53:32 <SpaceToast> the name itself was taken straight from Gentoo
2019-04-09 13:54:01 <SpaceToast> whether the main packaging team (that handles main/) is called Packaging or Core, doesn't really matter, and we'll figure that out if/after bootstrapping
2019-04-09 13:54:39 <ddevault> the voting page needs to be reworked to remove redundant information about the base team's voting procedure
2019-04-09 13:54:43 <ddevault> will get to it later
2019-04-09 13:55:05 <SpaceToast> the primary differences: 1. base is elected; 2. base does not have diluted authority (e.g when core tried to change stuff earlier, k_niinii got upset, this should not be the case); 3. election cycles rotate; 4. there are exactly 3 base team members (for quorum)
2019-04-09 15:39:36 <SpaceToast> ddevault: the important part to keep is that people can request popular votes, and how popular votes are done (on top of admin-votes which is the default state)
2019-04-09 15:39:49 <ddevault> I'll get a patch in later
2019-04-09 15:39:56 <SpaceToast> and base handles popular votes (if they decide to have them etc)
2019-04-09 15:39:58 <SpaceToast> ok
2019-04-09 15:40:30 <SpaceToast> P.S. I'm going to mostly disappear for a bit - new hearthtone expansion in an hour, gotta get back to legend before people realize :)
2019-04-09 16:43:47 <SpaceToast> ncopa: how's this as a clarification of the status quo (something you thought might be helpful)? https://brpaste.xyz/6Lm3-A
2019-04-09 16:52:59 <ncopa> hold on a bit, i am trying to respond on your email
2019-04-09 16:53:20 <SpaceToast> no worries, I'm not *too* active right now anyway (see: P.S. above)
2019-04-10 16:34:59 <ddevault> ncopa: I think making alpine community owned and not establishing a small group of authority figures who provide direction and administration would be a misstep
2019-04-11 09:09:10 <SpaceToast> this seems to be a semantics issue, to me
2019-04-11 09:09:23 <SpaceToast> obviously, without the community, alpine doesn't really exist
2019-04-11 09:10:02 <SpaceToast> similarly, in order to be capable to effectively guard the project, base needs sufficient authority (which effectively lets it do nearly anything)
2019-04-11 09:10:20 <SpaceToast> which one technically "owns" the project is moot
2019-04-15 14:40:49 <SpaceToast> looks like we don't have any volunteers (besides mort)
2019-04-15 14:44:19 <danieli> for what, specifically?
2019-04-15 14:44:35 <SpaceToast> danieli: ncopa called for having a working group for refining/reworking the reorg proposal
2019-04-15 14:44:50 <SpaceToast> I do think we're relatively quite close to a good end-state, but hey, I don't mind trying to make it better
2019-04-15 14:45:09 <SpaceToast> he would like there to be 4 members, one of which should have been with the project for a long time
2019-04-15 14:45:17 <SpaceToast> one was meant to be me, and another one some external specialist
2019-04-15 14:45:23 <SpaceToast> (I'm not sure if he means mort or someone else, though)
2019-04-15 14:45:38 <SpaceToast> he then sent out a call for volunteers to join that, and there have been a total of 1 responses (from mort, as mentioned)
2019-04-15 14:46:17 <ddevault> I suppose I can join if you're hurting for volunteers
2019-04-15 14:46:21 <ddevault> but you're on your own for the fourth member
2019-04-15 14:46:21 <danieli> don't take this the wrong way, but i think some people wanted to do too much, too quickly
2019-04-15 14:46:44 <SpaceToast> well, that's why we've been trimming the proposal down for the last few weeks :)
2019-04-15 14:46:57 <SpaceToast> forced rotation is out the window at this point (due to a pretty specific point ncopa has made)
2019-04-15 14:47:13 <SpaceToast> and I think I found a way to make the community/technical board stuff work
2019-04-15 14:47:21 <SpaceToast> (something ncopa has explicitly asked for many times)
2019-04-15 14:47:52 <SpaceToast> re: too much, too fast; the issue is that there is no iterative approach to it (at least that I can see, perhaps mort or ddevault have ideas)
2019-04-15 14:48:04 <SpaceToast> ddevault: I did ask if you'd join, thought you were too busy :)
2019-04-15 14:48:09 <ddevault> I am too busy
2019-04-15 14:48:12 <SpaceToast> still, I'd be glad to have you aboard
2019-04-15 14:49:23 <SpaceToast> (+ of course, as soon as the proposal's ratified we dissolve anyway)
2019-04-15 14:52:57 <SpaceToast> re: community/tech board separation
2019-04-15 14:53:10 <SpaceToast> since Base is effectively project-wide, we can consider them to effectively be the community board
2019-04-15 14:53:40 <SpaceToast> if we do that, we can have a single parent team for the entirety of the tech-related alpine activities (i.e above packaging (was: core), but also including various alpine projects like awall)
2019-04-15 14:54:08 <SpaceToast> considering that, I don't think they need to be elected (since they have nowhere near as much power in the end), but there is a question as to whether or not it makes sense to restrict membership
2019-04-15 14:54:27 <SpaceToast> (if everyone is on the "all things tech" team, we're not really hitting various goals of the reorg)
2019-04-15 14:57:48 <ddevault> I think you might be wise to reflect on danieli's words for a while before launching into fix-the-proposal mode
2019-04-15 15:00:01 <SpaceToast> okay, I see two ways to go forward (in general, not with this proposal or something similar as an end goal)
2019-04-15 15:00:09 <SpaceToast> a) we wait and do it later
2019-04-15 15:00:19 <SpaceToast> b) try to approach the reorg iteratively
2019-04-15 15:00:32 <SpaceToast> the issue with a is, of course, after waiting, the same issue comes back
2019-04-15 15:00:59 <SpaceToast> and I'm not entirely sure how to do b while also fixing all of the specific concerns that we are trying to fix
2019-04-15 15:01:11 <SpaceToast> (thus asking if you have ideas as to how that might be done :) )
2019-04-15 15:01:15 <_ikke_> iteratively sounds better in my opinion
2019-04-15 15:01:35 <_ikke_> Don't try to solve everything at once
2019-04-15 15:01:49 <ddevault> here's the simplest drop-in solution, imo:
2019-04-15 15:02:02 <danieli> +1 _ikke_
2019-04-15 15:02:11 <danieli> fix it piece by piece
2019-04-15 15:02:25 <ddevault> (1) consoldate the core team; (2) core team delegates specific tasks to others; (3) everyone moves on
2019-04-15 15:02:27 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: Alpine Linux is a community that organically grow this way. Trying to force it in another structure is not easy
2019-04-15 15:02:31 <SpaceToast> okay, as a reminder; here are the problems we're trying to fix:
2019-04-15 15:02:34 <SpaceToast> https://paste.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/077de606d0215e300078ba2584c878c69c0176a0
2019-04-15 15:03:15 <SpaceToast> (and, secondarily, a reminder that kaniini pointed out that the very concept of core is fundamentally broken - something that ncopa has agreed is an issue as well; we may put that down as 5.)
2019-04-15 15:05:00 <_ikke_> It's not so much broken as it is rather ill-defined
2019-04-15 15:05:22 <ddevault> I'm reusing the term "core" here to mean something similar to the base team in your proposal
2019-04-15 15:05:27 <SpaceToast> aha
2019-04-15 15:05:34 <ddevault> just to trim it down more
2019-04-15 15:05:47 <SpaceToast> _ikke_: well, currently, core serves multiple, often contradictory, purposes
2019-04-15 15:06:02 <SpaceToast> for instance, they're responsible for packaging in general (including main and stable branches),
2019-04-15 15:06:06 <SpaceToast> but are also the governing body
2019-04-15 15:06:57 <SpaceToast> if we read (1) as "make base a thing" (just minus elections), we're still not solving 2 or 3, and may not have good results in 1 or 4
2019-04-15 15:08:57 <SpaceToast> (but does fully solve 5, since it's effectively a dissolution of core-as-it-is-now)
2019-04-15 15:14:39 <SpaceToast> I suppose we could forgo elections (for the first iteration; we still lose out with all new members) if we currently have 3 members that the community unconditionally trusts
2019-04-15 15:14:50 <SpaceToast> ncopa being an obvious one, but going past that is a bit more difficult
2019-04-15 15:15:06 <SpaceToast> clandmeter: is a likely candidate for 2, but we're still down 1
2019-04-15 15:15:25 <ddevault> https://paste.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/28a1105c57ffc2543e00debf746b060a35a87550
2019-04-15 15:16:57 <SpaceToast> I'd still rather avoid using "core" as the name (I think I cleared that up in the ML)
2019-04-15 15:17:05 <SpaceToast> "base" seems confusing too so we do need to come up with something
2019-04-15 15:17:12 <ddevault> don't bikeshed the name
2019-04-15 15:17:15 <ddevault> what do you think of the model
2019-04-15 15:17:35 <SpaceToast> I think that it has two significant problems:
2019-04-15 15:17:43 <SpaceToast> 1. we create split-brain for internal/external affairs
2019-04-15 15:18:06 <SpaceToast> 2. this creates uncertainty when trying to join the project (no clear contacts, so on, so forth)
2019-04-15 15:18:22 <SpaceToast> (and as mentioned above, all new members don't have the hightened level of trust in core/base, due to no elections)
2019-04-15 15:18:41 <SpaceToast> so I'd be interested in hearing what mort and ncopa have to say about it; but the latter has asked not to participate until next week
2019-04-15 15:18:44 <SpaceToast> so the former will do for now
2019-04-15 15:18:51 <ddevault> an informal wiki page detailing people responsible for various things would solve #2
2019-04-15 15:18:55 <SpaceToast> could you send that (+ my concerns) in an email to the ML + mort?
2019-04-15 15:18:56 <ddevault> #1 can be solved later
2019-04-15 15:19:11 <ddevault> #3 can be solved later
2019-04-15 15:19:14 <SpaceToast> using the wiki as a source of truth seems... awkward to me, I'd very much rather have it be in the docs
2019-04-15 15:19:23 <ddevault> the docs don't exist
2019-04-15 15:19:33 <SpaceToast> well, we got to this in the attempt to create them ;)
2019-04-15 15:19:51 <SpaceToast> certainly, actively avoiding creating them while that's already in-process is strange
2019-04-15 15:19:59 <ddevault> placing "make the docs exist" before "fix the governance model" is adding some of the pomp and circumstance which is already holding this proposal back
2019-04-15 15:20:09 <ddevault> it's too big
2019-04-15 15:20:24 <SpaceToast> I think they come together
2019-04-15 15:20:41 <SpaceToast> but ok, we can start with an informal wiki page (that I'll maintain and move to the docs as I get to that)
2019-04-15 15:21:16 <SpaceToast> so an ML post with the suggestion, summary of my concerns, and explicitly mentioning that we want to solve 1 and 3 later (rather than just dropping it for a decade); with a CC to mort?
2019-04-15 15:21:50 <ddevault> can you summarize your concerns as a reply to my email
2019-04-15 15:21:54 <ddevault> what's mort's address?
2019-04-15 15:22:27 <SpaceToast> Richard Mortier <mort@cantab.net>
2019-04-15 17:32:32 <ncopa> hey
2019-04-15 17:34:15 <ncopa> ddevault: thanks for volunteering for the workgroup. i think we may need someone with enough respect from community and/or some history with the project
2019-04-15 17:35:14 <ncopa> part of the problem with the previous proposal was that it was from an individual
2019-04-15 17:35:19 <ncopa> and that is renatlively new
2019-04-15 17:35:53 <ncopa> so people started to ask, who is this? can we trust her? whats her intentions?
2019-04-15 17:36:08 <ddevault> perhaps you could reach out to people you think would be a good fit for the board?
2019-04-15 17:36:12 <ddevault> workgroup?
2019-04-15 17:36:14 <ddevault> words words
2019-04-15 17:36:39 <ncopa> i am talking with people
2019-04-15 17:37:28 <ncopa> most to find out what options we have
2019-04-15 17:37:53 <ncopa> oh you mean for the work group :)
2019-04-15 17:39:40 <ncopa> i have asked around yes
2019-04-15 17:41:05 <ddevault> cool, I'll leave it in your capable hands
2019-04-15 17:42:56 <ncopa> another thing we could do is to keep the current effective "core" team, fix definition of what the the "core" team is
2019-04-15 17:43:53 <ncopa> and define what is expected from the "base"
2019-04-15 17:44:03 <SpaceToast> ncopa: yeah, it seems to be like they can simply be the new packaging team
2019-04-15 17:44:08 <SpaceToast> since, that's what they do, right? :)
2019-04-15 17:44:12 <ddevault> why keep the "core" nomenclature?
2019-04-15 17:44:15 <SpaceToast> and then have a subteam for "community" packaging
2019-04-15 17:44:26 <ncopa> no im thinking who should be in the new "base"
2019-04-15 17:44:32 <ncopa> and the top authority
2019-04-15 17:44:40 <ncopa> that is the controversial part
2019-04-15 17:44:47 <ncopa> who the packagers are is way simpler
2019-04-15 17:44:57 <ddevault> I mean, kick everyone out of core, establish properly named teams, and use core for what we've been describing as base
2019-04-15 17:44:59 <ddevault> less confusing
2019-04-15 17:45:10 <SpaceToast> except that people that already "knew" core will now be confused
2019-04-15 17:45:15 <SpaceToast> "hey why are all the developers being kicked out"
2019-04-15 17:45:40 <ncopa> kicking "core" is what is controversial and difficult to sell to the community
2019-04-15 17:45:48 <ddevault> well, have someone less moronic than I write the blog with gentler language
2019-04-15 17:46:11 <ncopa> im am trying to accomplish more or less the same result
2019-04-15 17:46:20 <ncopa> but thinking how to "sell" it to the community
2019-04-15 17:46:28 <ncopa> without causing too much fuzz
2019-04-15 17:46:40 <SpaceToast> ideally, the community should understand what and why things are happening, but that may be asking too much
2019-04-15 17:46:47 <ddevault> just open with "this isn't a change in anyone's responsibilities, privileges, or trust"
2019-04-15 17:46:51 <SpaceToast> (both of us, who are trying to explain it, and of the community)
2019-04-15 17:46:54 <ddevault> "it's just renaming teams to be less confusing"
2019-04-15 17:47:28 <ncopa> first step is to formalize who is the authority, and what the process for chaning the rules is
2019-04-15 17:47:53 <ncopa> keeping the "core" team as is will indicate that this is not really any change (in the controverstial parts)
2019-04-15 17:48:00 <ncopa> its just documenting what is current effect
2019-04-15 17:48:13 <ncopa> if we keep the "core" name, it will be lot easier to accept
2019-04-15 17:48:27 <SpaceToast> but also very confusing as to the details :/
2019-04-15 17:48:28 <ddevault> tbh I find the core team to be part of the problem
2019-04-15 17:48:39 <ddevault> how do we know that it's going to be controversial if we change that?
2019-04-15 17:48:55 <SpaceToast> because it already has been, more or less
2019-04-15 17:48:56 <ncopa> i know the people, and we are not that many
2019-04-15 17:49:02 <ncopa> :)
2019-04-15 17:49:43 <ncopa> then the next step would be to form a technical board, or a tech steering team or whatever we call it
2019-04-15 17:50:15 <SpaceToast> ncopa: have you read my ideas re: tech/community boards above?
2019-04-15 17:50:35 <ncopa> and suggest that some of the members in current core team switch to tech board
2019-04-15 17:51:04 <ncopa> that way we may be able to form a "base" or "admin" board which is small enough
2019-04-15 17:51:19 <ncopa> *and* keep all the people involved happy
2019-04-15 17:51:57 <SpaceToast> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2019-04-15 17:52:00 <ncopa> i think that many of the current people in "core" would be more than happy to not need to deal with CoC incidents and be involved in rule change decisions
2019-04-15 17:52:08 <SpaceToast> yes, that's the impression I got
2019-04-15 17:52:14 <SpaceToast> to summarize my above thoughts:
2019-04-15 17:52:19 <SpaceToast> I was looking at it backwards
2019-04-15 17:52:35 <SpaceToast> we can consider "Base" to be the community board, and have a (regular, not-elected) "Tech" board team under it
2019-04-15 17:52:53 <SpaceToast> which would be the parent for all technical things (including current-core, which would effectively be "Packaging" (if not in name, in function))
2019-04-15 17:57:10 <SpaceToast> would that be an ok way to implement the tech/community board separation?
2019-04-15 18:15:43 <ncopa> im in  a mtg now, but i just discoverete that ddevault sent a new proposal to the ml
2019-04-15 18:19:19 <SpaceToast> yeah, we've talked it over in here
2019-04-15 18:19:53 <SpaceToast> it was his idea to severely minimize the proposal, but I've some concerns (e.g it doesn't solve most of our issues, and "we'll do it later" is always a concern for me (e.g see: corporate))
2019-04-15 18:44:50 <danieli> we've already established that it's a bad idea to attempt fixing everything in one go
2019-04-15 18:52:21 <SpaceToast> The established reason was that the community would frown on it
2019-04-15 18:52:34 <SpaceToast> If ncopa says it won't be a problem as long as X, that seems fine as well
2019-04-15 18:52:48 <SpaceToast> If he doesn't say so, we can keep trying the iterative route
2019-04-15 18:52:56 <SpaceToast> There's no limit to how many ideas we can discuss :)
2019-04-15 19:47:07 <ncopa> ddevault left
2019-04-15 19:47:59 <ncopa> i hope he didnt get offended that i didnt invite him to the working group
2019-04-15 19:48:12 <_ikke_> He said himself he didn't have time
2019-04-15 19:49:18 <mps> his proposal on ML is fine
2019-04-15 19:51:06 <SpaceToast> I invited him to the working group, he initially said he was too busy, then said he would join, and now has left again
2019-04-15 19:51:20 <SpaceToast> mps: it doesn't do anything to solve the majority of the problems we're trying to solve
2019-04-15 19:51:40 <SpaceToast> he agrees with that assessment too, saying that they'll be addressed "later"
2019-04-15 19:52:10 <SpaceToast> my concern is that the later in question will never come, and if it does, we'll run into similar issues to now
2019-04-15 19:52:17 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: But you don't want to instabilize alpine either
2019-04-15 19:52:42 <_ikke_> forcing it to quickly in a certain direction can have an instable effect on the community
2019-04-15 19:53:20 <mps> I'm for small steps and not to rush to solve everything 'right now'
2019-04-15 19:54:56 <mps> Alpine evolved to current state without to much formal documented rules
2019-04-15 19:55:57 <SpaceToast> _ikke_: of course, as I said previously, I'm for discussing all of the ideas and selecting the best one
2019-04-15 19:56:16 <SpaceToast> what I'm against is saying "ok, let's tunnel vision on this one idea (whether mine or ddevault's) and ignore everything else"
2019-04-15 19:56:33 <_ikke_> No one is proposing that though
2019-04-15 19:56:46 <SpaceToast> well, danieli's statement had seemed like he was proposing that ^^;;
2019-04-15 19:57:04 <danieli> what now?
2019-04-15 19:57:08 <danieli> I'm gonna have to read up, hold on
2019-04-15 19:58:31 <SpaceToast> mps: well the reason we're changing things to begin with is because the current state has multiple, obvious disadvantages
2019-04-15 19:58:34 <mps> _ikke_: just read you volunteer for WG :)
2019-04-15 19:58:55 <mps> SpaceToast: right, we all agree with this
2019-04-15 19:59:07 <SpaceToast> yes
2019-04-15 19:59:13 <SpaceToast> so we agree that there are things to fix
2019-04-15 19:59:24 <_ikke_> I think (almost) everyone agrees
2019-04-15 19:59:27 <SpaceToast> if we are fixing things, the goal is to fix as much as possible without disrupting the community
2019-04-15 19:59:29 <mps> without doubth
2019-04-15 19:59:41 <danieli> there's no need to be rude, I haven't suggested we tunnel vision on one thing
2019-04-15 20:00:09 <SpaceToast> danieli: my understanding is that you were suggesting we drop the discussion because we had agreed on something (that changing so much that the community would suffer is no good)
2019-04-15 20:00:13 <SpaceToast> did I misunderstand?
2019-04-15 20:00:17 <mps> but most disagree to do that on big step
2019-04-15 20:00:27 <SpaceToast> I don't think it's about the size of the step
2019-04-15 20:00:32 <SpaceToast> but the measurable effects on the community
2019-04-15 20:00:48 <SpaceToast> making smaller steps, each of which has large negative effects is far worse than making large steps, but that are wholly inoffensive
2019-04-15 20:00:49 <_ikke_> ncopa: has some contacts that have experience with governance models in open source projects
2019-04-15 20:00:53 <ncopa> i think it will be good to let the working group work in peace and come up with a proposal without all the noise from community
2019-04-15 20:01:19 <SpaceToast> so we should be trying to figure out not the correct "size of step", but the optimal step that maximizes fixes and minimizes community impact
2019-04-15 20:01:24 <SpaceToast> (approaching it from the other direction)
2019-04-15 20:01:30 <ncopa> i also think it will be good if the WG can work without noise from me :)
2019-04-15 20:01:34 <mps> should I cite Yogi Berra about predictions
2019-04-15 20:01:50 <SpaceToast> ncopa: your noise is highly appreciated noise, but I also don't want to constantly bother you :)
2019-04-15 20:02:06 <SpaceToast> with _ikke_ onboard we have another long (relatively)-time representative
2019-04-15 20:02:18 <SpaceToast> ncopa: speaking of, the specialist in question; did you mean mort, or someone else?
2019-04-15 20:03:37 <mps> ncopa: do whatever you want but imo you should be involved in this process
2019-04-15 20:03:57 <SpaceToast> one of the goals is to take some of the load off of ncopa
2019-04-15 20:04:11 <SpaceToast> significantly increasing said load in the (now quite lengthy) process of trying to remove it is... interesting
2019-04-15 20:04:58 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: That's why ncopa proposed the working group
2019-04-15 20:05:22 <mps> as a project leader he have to carry his load, imo, although again I would and cannot not force him. just saying what I think
2019-04-15 20:05:25 <SpaceToast> I think so too :)
2019-04-15 20:06:02 <SpaceToast> mps: I think you underestimate how much ncopa actually does
2019-04-15 20:06:16 <mps> are you sure?
2019-04-15 20:06:56 <mps> no, please, will not continue in this tone
2019-04-15 20:08:58 <SpaceToast> well, "you should carry this gargantuan load, even single components of which are staggering" seems... weird to me
2019-04-15 20:09:11 <SpaceToast> it would make sense if you were underestimating it
2019-04-15 20:09:25 <ncopa> \o/ Allison Randal will help us
2019-04-15 20:09:29 <ncopa> the specialist
2019-04-15 20:09:36 <SpaceToast> for instance, there's something like ~4300 entries on pkgs.a.o that list ncopa as their maintainer
2019-04-15 20:09:42 <SpaceToast> that's a pretty incredible number :)
2019-04-15 20:09:48 <SpaceToast> and that's *just* the packages he directly maintains
2019-04-15 20:09:51 <SpaceToast> ncopa: nice! :D
2019-04-15 20:10:30 <danieli> ncopa: that's nice :)
2019-04-15 20:10:32 <SpaceToast> so, assuming ddevault did mean what he said about joining the WG, we have our 4 members
2019-04-15 20:10:56 <danieli> but to be honest, I'm getting an increasingly strong urge to back off a bit. I feel like there are too many cooks in the kitchen, as well as a lot of conflicting opinions
2019-04-15 20:11:33 <SpaceToast> opinions conflicting, followed by talking it out (in a structured and intellectually honest matter) is how you arrive at a better, this time shared, opinion
2019-04-15 20:12:21 <danieli> I don't feel like I have much to contribute with, and there's *a lot* of reading to be done to keep up with the reorg process
2019-04-15 20:12:24 <SpaceToast> of course it does require all participants to be intellectually honest and willing to change said opinion when presented with evidence or meritocratous points
2019-04-15 20:12:33 <SpaceToast> but I do think you qualify on both
2019-04-15 20:12:39 <_ikke_> The most important part of this is that people have trust in the process
2019-04-15 20:12:43 <SpaceToast> okay, no one's going to force you, of course :)
2019-04-15 20:13:01 <SpaceToast> _ikke_: I think that's tied with actually solving the problems we set out to solve
2019-04-15 20:13:07 <danieli> I have more or less been observing from the sidelines
2019-04-15 20:13:12 <SpaceToast> (i.e if we make changes that everyone has trust in, but solves no issues, that's no good either)
2019-04-15 20:13:29 <_ikke_> of course the opposite is also true
2019-04-15 20:13:34 <SpaceToast> yes
2019-04-15 20:13:40 <SpaceToast> that's why I think they're tied :)
2019-04-15 20:14:07 <_ikke_> We don't want to change for the sake of change
2019-04-15 20:14:25 <_ikke_> (ie, coming up with sollutions that solve nothing helps no one)
2019-04-15 20:14:32 <SpaceToast> yes, we have a concrete list of problems we are attempting to solve
2019-04-15 20:14:59 <_ikke_> Some more urgent than others
2019-04-15 20:15:48 <SpaceToast> that's true, my point was just that actually solving the problems is of similar importance to the solutions being accepted
2019-04-15 20:16:00 <SpaceToast> (without both of those, ultimately, the problems remain unsolved)
2019-04-15 20:18:03 <SpaceToast> ncopa: oh, this is the parrotvm Allison?
2019-04-15 20:18:30 <danieli> perl and python too iirc
2019-04-15 20:19:01 <SpaceToast> yes, but parrot is (imo) a far more impressive acheivement
2019-04-15 20:19:14 <ncopa> yes
2019-04-15 20:19:15 <SpaceToast> (I'm not a fan of perl, and while I do quite like python it's lacking some significant things)
2019-04-15 20:19:19 <SpaceToast> awesome!
2019-04-15 20:21:24 <_ikke_> I'm curious to what she has to tell
2019-04-15 20:21:36 <_ikke_> I heard she was involved in several OSS projects
2019-04-15 20:21:39 <SpaceToast> my primary concern would be organization size things
2019-04-15 20:21:48 <SpaceToast> once you've been on the board of, say, openstack, it might shift the perspective
2019-04-15 20:22:00 <SpaceToast> but it's still a valuable and interesting perspective to take in :)
2019-04-15 20:22:36 <_ikke_> Yes, one thing we need to take into account is the size of Alpine. We're not so big as to have several boards and commitees
2019-04-15 20:23:38 <SpaceToast> We'll tackle the ideas individually, of course, but the proposal will definitely be better for it
2019-04-15 20:24:32 <danieli> as far as I know, Alpine is a loose community, without any legal entity
2019-04-15 20:25:13 <SpaceToast> yeah, there's no "alpine foundation" or anything, as far as I'm aware
2019-04-15 20:25:23 <SpaceToast> imo that is preferable
2019-04-15 20:25:29 <_ikke_> Correct, there isn't
2019-04-15 20:25:39 <SpaceToast> the concern, of course, is with licensing
2019-04-15 20:26:00 <SpaceToast> which is another quite large issue, but not one of the ones we're seeking to correct with the reorg (at least yet, we could always add it to the list)
2019-04-15 20:27:30 <SpaceToast> ping _ikke_: would it be ok if I PMd you for a moment?
2019-04-15 20:27:55 <_ikke_> sure
2019-04-15 20:32:39 <SpaceToast> ta, appreciated
2019-04-15 20:33:25 <SpaceToast> (note: if a request for transparency comes up, I don't mind the contents of the exchange from being made public, but it's mostly just some personal information that may be relevant in the case that _ikke_ takes leadership of the WG, and thus don't think it should be public by default)
2019-04-17 13:56:30 <SpaceToast> ping clandmeter: danieli made some changes to the "default" UI theme antora has (and it's on git.a.o in his user repos); however, to use an antora theme, you have to specify a zip distribution of it (either remote or local) (see: https://docs.antora.org/antora/2.0/playbook/configure-ui/)
2019-04-17 13:56:49 <SpaceToast> I'd highly prefer if we had a url for it, so other people (myself included) could build the docs with the official theme etc
2019-04-17 13:57:09 <SpaceToast> could it be possible to rig up build-on-push + static file hosting for it?
2019-04-17 13:57:34 <SpaceToast> (if we need to move it under docs/ that's perfectly fine by me, though ideally we'd reserve that for the made-from-scratch theme I expect to make (or have made) eventually)
2019-04-17 13:59:20 <danieli> should be fairly easy to pull it locally on the docs box and build it there
2019-04-17 13:59:45 <SpaceToast> danieli: well it'd still need to be published publicly through http (to get the other goal)
2019-04-17 13:59:54 <SpaceToast> also, I don't have access to the docs box (or any box, for that matter, which is fine)
2019-04-17 14:00:01 <danieli> ah, all right - good to know
2019-04-17 14:00:12 <danieli> if I knew that, I had forgotten
2019-04-17 14:01:23 <_ikke_> mqtt-exec can be used for the build-on-push part
2019-04-17 14:02:20 <SpaceToast> I'm still quite new here in relative terms, so it's quite expected that I wouldn't just be given access to everything ;)
2019-04-17 14:02:43 <SpaceToast> not that I really want it either - when it comes to system administration I very much think the whole "too many cooks in the kitchen" thing applies
2019-04-17 14:02:59 <SpaceToast> since I'm currently an admin at $dayjob I'd have my own way of wanting to deal with things that could interfere with what's currently set up
2019-04-17 14:03:12 <SpaceToast> (well, even if the former wasn't true it'd still apply, it just makes it ever more acute)
2019-04-17 14:03:21 <_ikke_> Yes, this is something the infra team would setup
2019-04-17 14:03:37 <SpaceToast> certainly if we were launching *new* infrastructure I could have taken a part in that, but that's not really the case :)
2019-04-17 14:03:51 <SpaceToast> _ikke_: yeah, that's why I was poking clandmeter, since he's the one that set up the docs box to begin with
2019-04-17 14:04:16 <clandmeter> o/
2019-04-17 14:04:22 <SpaceToast> \o
2019-04-17 14:04:43 <clandmeter> Wassup?
2019-04-17 14:04:53 <SpaceToast> wanna get the new theme for docs set up
2019-04-17 14:05:10 <SpaceToast> it's not the final version, but it gets rid of "product A", "service B" and so on
2019-04-17 14:05:12 <clandmeter> \o/
2019-04-17 14:05:23 <SpaceToast> ( danieli made it, congratulate him :) )
2019-04-17 14:05:35 <clandmeter> And us
2019-04-17 14:05:43 <danieli> I just modified the default one a bit
2019-04-17 14:05:44 <SpaceToast> it's a light set of changes to the "default" ui that we're using now, I do still want to make one from scratch later
2019-04-17 14:05:47 <clandmeter> We have to look at it :)
2019-04-17 14:05:48 <danieli> yeah
2019-04-17 14:05:49 <SpaceToast> but the current set is quite unacceptable imo
2019-04-17 14:06:10 <SpaceToast> + setting it up would mean that switching to any finalized version later would be much simpler (just substitute the repo name)
2019-04-17 14:06:23 <clandmeter> I think danieli or _ikke_ can help
2019-04-17 14:06:32 <_ikke_> I can help later today (in about an hour)
2019-04-17 14:06:38 <clandmeter> The container is simple
2019-04-17 14:06:39 <SpaceToast> do they have access to the build box, and any static web servers?
2019-04-17 14:06:44 <SpaceToast> uh, the docs box*
2019-04-17 14:06:47 <_ikke_> Yes, I have
2019-04-17 14:06:51 <clandmeter> They do
2019-04-17 14:06:53 <_ikke_> and danieli as well
2019-04-17 14:07:00 <SpaceToast> ok, cool :) ty clandmeter
2019-04-17 14:07:10 <clandmeter> But it makes sense to give you access
2019-04-17 14:07:24 <SpaceToast> _ikke_: I'm still at work (and will be for ~6+ more hours)
2019-04-17 14:07:31 <SpaceToast> but feel free to ask me any questions you might have
2019-04-17 14:07:43 <SpaceToast> (though I'm not too familiar with the ui side of antora in particular outside of what's outlined above)
2019-04-17 14:07:43 <clandmeter> So you don't have to poke us
2019-04-17 14:07:44 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: If you can give at least the general idea of what needs to happen
2019-04-17 14:09:08 <SpaceToast> _ikke_: 1. keep a local copy of danieli's repo; 2. on update, create a zip distribution from it (I think, but am not sure, that git-archive is sufficient?); 3. make that available on a static web server with a permanent path; 4. whenever 3 is done (i.e the file is updated) rebuild the docs
2019-04-17 14:09:26 <SpaceToast> this way all we'd need to do to update the theme in the future is change 1 (and *maybe* 2)
2019-04-17 14:09:34 <SpaceToast> and people could build our docs without being on the infra
2019-04-17 14:10:39 <clandmeter> I think i can give you an vpn conf so you can handle it yourself.
2019-04-17 14:10:41 <danieli> why does it have to be publicly available, it'll only be used on the docs box, right?
2019-04-17 14:10:58 <SpaceToast> _ikke_: actually, looks like git-archive isn't sufficient, looking at it; you need `gulp` installed and to run `gulp bundle`, at which point it'll be in build/ui-bundle.zip
2019-04-17 14:11:15 <SpaceToast> danieli: so people outside of alpine could build the docs without doing weird modifications
2019-04-17 14:11:20 <danieli> aah, true
2019-04-17 14:11:29 <SpaceToast> including any mirrors I might have :)
2019-04-17 14:13:43 <clandmeter> SpaceToast: you want to manage that yourself?
2019-04-17 14:14:11 <SpaceToast> clandmeter: as I mentioned above, I'd probably have specific ways as to how I'd want a lot of things done that may contrast with the current infra
2019-04-17 14:14:21 <SpaceToast> I'd rather you guys do it however you think is appropriate, assuming the results are good :)
2019-04-17 14:14:30 <clandmeter> Ok
2019-04-17 14:14:35 <SpaceToast> (or, put another way, I don't like inheriting infra)
2019-04-17 14:14:52 <SpaceToast> (and I also don't like people poking around in my stuff, so I assume you don't like it either ^^)
2019-04-17 14:15:11 <clandmeter> Well i won't touch it anymore
2019-04-17 14:15:31 <clandmeter> It's your thingy, but it's all fine by me
2019-04-17 14:15:54 <SpaceToast> mhm
2019-04-17 14:15:55 <clandmeter> We can also handle it
2019-04-17 14:16:07 <SpaceToast> I'm ok with you guys handling it ^^
2019-04-17 14:19:11 <_ikke_> I'll handle it :)
2019-04-17 14:46:50 <SpaceToast> thanks :)
2019-04-17 14:47:21 <SpaceToast> I'll poke around whatever you make once I'm off work; ideally we'll have a much less egregiously looking docs site by tomorrow!
2019-04-18 02:39:03 <SpaceToast> danieli: btw, is the discord server supposed to be public info?
2019-04-18 02:39:18 <SpaceToast> (i.e should I invite potentially interested people in, or should I hold off for some time?)
2019-04-18 02:39:20 <danieli> SpaceToast: eventually, that was the intention
2019-04-18 02:39:31 <danieli> you're free to give the invite ('alpine') to people who are interested
2019-04-18 02:39:42 <SpaceToast> ok cool
2019-04-18 02:39:50 <SpaceToast> I mostly know gentoo people, but a lot of them are interested in us because of musl
2019-04-18 02:40:09 <SpaceToast> (and that was about 1 of the 2 huge factors that led to me moving over)
2019-04-18 02:40:14 <danieli> making it official thing (rather than just a guild managed by someone who's a part of the project) would need a round or two through the ML
2019-04-18 02:40:26 <SpaceToast> ah makes sense
2019-04-18 02:40:26 <danieli> and it *will* get resistance considering discord is proprietary and all
2019-04-18 02:40:42 <SpaceToast> so basically "it isn't official right now, but it's run by a member who's planning to try to make it official"
2019-04-18 02:43:33 <danieli> yes
2019-04-18 02:44:00 <danieli> I could get it verified because I'm demonstrably part of the project + it's a fairly large project
2019-04-18 13:58:26 <SpaceToast> _ikke_: anything I can try and test yet re: docs? ok if not, just polling :)
2019-04-18 13:58:53 <_ikke_> Something came up yesterday, didn't have time yet
2019-04-18 13:59:00 <SpaceToast> okay, nw
2019-04-18 22:48:18 <kaniini> jesus fucking christ, using a proprietary service for communications
2019-04-18 22:48:24 <kaniini> what a disgrace
2019-04-18 22:58:32 <SpaceToast> kaniini: "switching"?
2019-04-18 22:58:42 <SpaceToast> "for communications"?
2019-04-18 22:58:46 <SpaceToast> I think you're misunderstanding what's going on
2019-04-18 22:59:28 <kaniini> you are using discord, a proprietary communications service, for some purpose
2019-04-18 23:00:02 <SpaceToast> usually, "switching from X to Y" implies a bit more than that ;)
2019-04-18 23:00:22 <SpaceToast> the purpose is "if people want to talk on it, that is okay", nothing's being "moved over" to it
2019-04-18 23:00:22 <kaniini> [21:40:14] <danieli> making it official thing (rather than just a guild managed by someone who's a part of the project) would need a round or two through the ML
2019-04-18 23:00:37 <SpaceToast> yes, official as in "we mention it exists" as opposed to "we pretend it doesn't exist"
2019-04-18 23:00:43 <kaniini> a project that is making a free software distribution should *never* endorse proprietary services
2019-04-18 23:00:47 <SpaceToast> similarly, there is an official alpine account on twitter
2019-04-18 23:00:51 <SpaceToast> a proprietary service
2019-04-18 23:00:54 <SpaceToast> that makes announcements
2019-04-18 23:00:54 <kaniini> that's different
2019-04-18 23:01:01 <SpaceToast> how is it different?
2019-04-18 23:01:02 <danieli> how is it different?
2019-04-18 23:01:09 <SpaceToast> it is using twitter, a proprietary communications service, for some purpose
2019-04-18 23:01:21 <kaniini> that is marketing
2019-04-18 23:01:22 <SpaceToast> not only that, the use of twitter is actually RELEVANT to something, outside of pure community outreach
2019-04-18 23:01:24 <kaniini> this is infrastructure
2019-04-18 23:01:27 <SpaceToast> no, it isn't
2019-04-18 23:01:30 <kaniini> yes, it is
2019-04-18 23:01:33 <SpaceToast> no infrastructure is, nor will be, on discord
2019-04-18 23:01:42 <kaniini> the discord itself *is* infrastructure
2019-04-18 23:01:46 <SpaceToast> my understanding is that it is a pure community location for conversations
2019-04-18 23:01:46 <kaniini> for people to discuss alpine
2019-04-18 23:01:48 <SpaceToast> SO IS TWITTER
2019-04-18 23:01:52 <kaniini> good for twitter
2019-04-18 23:01:57 <kaniini> who cares
2019-04-18 23:02:02 <danieli> i could say the same about discord
2019-04-18 23:02:05 <SpaceToast> that's what I was asking, when you started making a big deal about it
2019-04-18 23:02:11 <kaniini> twitter isn't trying to destroy libre communications
2019-04-18 23:02:13 <kaniini> discord *is*
2019-04-18 23:02:16 <kaniini> so is slack, too
2019-04-18 23:02:30 <SpaceToast> are you sure twitter *doesn't* want everyone to switch to twitter for everything forever?
2019-04-18 23:02:37 <SpaceToast> you sure do think highly of them :)
2019-04-18 23:02:49 <kaniini> no, i see twitter as a different usecase
2019-04-18 23:02:53 <kaniini> discord directly competes with IRC
2019-04-18 23:03:08 <danieli> twitter directly competes with pleroma/mastodon/gnusocial/...
2019-04-18 23:03:09 <SpaceToast> and twitter directly competes with https://alpinelinux.org/posts/
2019-04-18 23:03:17 <danieli> right, relating to alpine
2019-04-18 23:03:17 <SpaceToast> (and those as well, of course)
2019-04-18 23:03:19 <kaniini> and yes, i am troubled by the fact that alpine does use twitter but does not do anything with libre alternatives too
2019-04-18 23:03:42 <SpaceToast> so it's ok if you default to libre alternatives, but ALSO *allow* the use of proprietary things
2019-04-18 23:03:44 <SpaceToast> yes?
2019-04-18 23:04:04 <kaniini> it is a case by case basis
2019-04-18 23:04:21 <SpaceToast> "a case by case basis" sounds a lot like "I get to choose when and how to apply my principles", to me, at least
2019-04-18 23:04:52 <danieli> this is exactly the holy war i was aiming at earlier
2019-04-18 23:05:05 <kaniini> then yes, if you wish to be absolutist, then, yes, the twitter should go too
2019-04-18 23:05:10 <kaniini> however.
2019-04-18 23:05:20 <SpaceToast> okay; now the way I see it is that defaulting to libre and allowing the rest is reasonable :)
2019-04-18 23:05:24 <kaniini> there is *value* for using twitter, it is useful for outreach
2019-04-18 23:05:30 <kaniini> discord is useful for nothing
2019-04-18 23:05:33 <danieli> so is discord, making it available
2019-04-18 23:05:40 <danieli> opensuse and fedora both have guilds there
2019-04-18 23:05:46 <kaniini> yes, and that is stupid too
2019-04-18 23:05:53 <kaniini> because you erode the libre alternative (IRC)
2019-04-18 23:05:54 <SpaceToast> lots of people use discord, without using twitter, and being "afraid" of IRC - providing an official location for alpine discussion there serves the same purpose
2019-04-18 23:06:11 <SpaceToast> I would be pushing for fediverse representation, as opposed to the elimination of access points
2019-04-18 23:06:19 <SpaceToast> "more libre", not "less non-libre"
2019-04-18 23:06:39 <SpaceToast> or, rather, "more everything, libre preferred" :)
2019-04-18 23:06:50 <kaniini> this is the sort of lack of principles that leads alpine to it's current situation
2019-04-18 23:06:51 <SpaceToast> and suddenly I don't need to make exceptions to my point of view!
2019-04-18 23:07:12 <kaniini> if free software does not matter, what is even the point
2019-04-18 23:07:31 <SpaceToast> I see a non-sequitur
2019-04-18 23:07:51 <SpaceToast> free software is preferable because it gives freedom to the users, which inherently results in it being better software in general
2019-04-18 23:08:01 <kaniini> you can see what you want to see, the reason i quit is because alpine is inherently corrupt in the way it operates
2019-04-18 23:08:04 <SpaceToast> the goal is for as much as possible to be as good as possible, if you ask me
2019-04-18 23:08:18 <kaniini> being in bed with proprietary services is no surprise to me
2019-04-18 23:08:22 <kaniini> just more of the same shit
2019-04-18 23:08:24 <SpaceToast> "in bed with"?
2019-04-18 23:08:37 <SpaceToast> you have some funny ideas as to what "selling out" is :)
2019-04-18 23:08:40 <kaniini> fedora and opensuse sold out, who cares
2019-04-18 23:09:19 <SpaceToast> fedora didn't sell out, it was a redhat project to begin with
2019-04-18 23:09:22 <SpaceToast> not sure about opensuse
2019-04-18 23:09:40 <danieli> SuSE GmbH
2019-04-18 23:10:04 <danieli> SLES
2019-04-18 23:10:05 <SpaceToast> I'm in favor of more users, better software, and more freedom for the users
2019-04-18 23:10:07 <kaniini> who cares, companies can incubate and manage free software projects
2019-04-18 23:10:20 <kaniini> if you adopt discord, the IRC stuff will die
2019-04-18 23:10:27 <SpaceToast> if the users want to use a service they prefer, and discuss something, that's their freedom to do so, and they shouldn't be shunned as a result
2019-04-18 23:10:45 <kaniini> doesn't mean that alpine needs to give it official blessing
2019-04-18 23:10:49 <SpaceToast> you say that, but #gentoo-chat (for example) is still quite active, despite there being an official (well, it's complicated) gentoo discord server for a while :)
2019-04-18 23:10:54 <kaniini> just like alpine did not have to give WSL use blessing
2019-04-18 23:11:15 <SpaceToast> the official blessing is to maximize user cohesiveness, so that there's a canonical spot for it on said platform
2019-04-18 23:11:26 <SpaceToast> re: WSL I disagree with the approach, but have no problems with alpine being on the platform
2019-04-18 23:11:47 <SpaceToast> if alpine is available (for consumption or discussion) in more places, that is more people that have the ability to then use and/or discuss it
2019-04-18 23:11:58 <SpaceToast> this, in turn, actively promotes free and better software
2019-04-18 23:12:09 <kaniini> ah, so you are fine with alpine being promulgated to being a 'windows store app'
2019-04-18 23:12:20 <SpaceToast> as I said, I disagree with the approach
2019-04-18 23:12:32 <kaniini> which undermines the whole project
2019-04-18 23:12:34 <SpaceToast> I think we should be providing a tarball on alpinelinux.org/downloads and let the users install it through the wrapper
2019-04-18 23:12:57 <SpaceToast> (I'm not sure if the container tarball works, if so, I would have said that we already have WSL support)
2019-04-18 23:13:27 <SpaceToast> I do disagree that it undermines the whole project - canonical straight up partnered with microsoft to make WSL, and Ubuntu is the first "windows store app"
2019-04-18 23:13:36 <SpaceToast> data shows that actual ubuntu usage did not suffer, and instead continued to grow
2019-04-18 23:14:23 <SpaceToast> what I don't like is giving microsoft limited publishing rights to alpine, thus the avoidance of the actual store
2019-04-18 23:14:51 <kaniini> and what about microsoft's use of WSL to keep people from trying the libre desktop ?
2019-04-18 23:15:13 <kaniini> WSL is a trojan horse, just because canonical is stupid, does not mean we needed to make the same mistake
2019-04-18 23:15:33 <SpaceToast> microsoft don't have mind control abilities.
2019-04-18 23:15:45 <SpaceToast> if people are rational agents, they have all the power to do what they want
2019-04-18 23:16:00 <SpaceToast> I don't care about those that aren't
2019-04-18 23:16:34 <kaniini> but you see
2019-04-18 23:16:39 <kaniini> if WSL exists, it's "good enough"
2019-04-18 23:17:11 <SpaceToast> "good enough" not actually being good enough is why free software exists in the first place
2019-04-18 23:17:11 <kaniini> people are willing to compromise and accept certified pre-owned software (Windows) because they get their happy little alpine CLI environment
2019-04-18 23:20:13 <kaniini> free software is inherently political
2019-04-18 23:20:44 <kaniini> by endorsing discord, you help them with their disinformation campaign that is harming truly libre communications tools like IRC
2019-04-18 23:21:09 <kaniini> by endorsing WSL, you help Microsoft with their efforts to repack "Linux" as an app you download from the Windows Store
2019-04-18 23:21:29 <kaniini> what next?  an official alpine slack?
2019-04-18 23:22:29 <SpaceToast> free software became politicized when Stallman walked in and declared it such
2019-04-18 23:23:17 <SpaceToast> it started out as informal sharing of resources, followed by a notable moment when a specific utility everyone liked was only going to be available on a specific OS, which followed with a member declaring that he would write a compliant versions and release the source :)
2019-04-18 23:23:36 <SpaceToast> the alternative approach, of course, is to declare everything political, because subjective beings are involved
2019-04-18 23:23:45 <SpaceToast> however consider the following:
2019-04-18 23:23:57 <SpaceToast> "there is an official X on Y" is not necessarily an endorsement of Y
2019-04-18 23:24:20 <SpaceToast> X on Y will exist no matter what. Having an official one, however, allows you to have control over how X exists and manifests itself.
2019-04-18 23:26:48 <kaniini> free software became politicized when the US Supreme Court determined that arbitrary binary sequences are protected by copyright
2019-04-18 23:26:57 <kaniini> which is what triggered Stallman's involvement
2019-04-18 23:27:22 <SpaceToast> countries try to mess with things all the time
2019-04-18 23:27:32 <SpaceToast> to determine that something is political as a result is to bow down to their authority.
2019-04-18 23:27:54 <kaniini> cool story
2019-04-18 23:27:57 <SpaceToast> as-is, we have software licenses, which is a direct response to that determination - "well it doesn't count anyways"
2019-04-18 23:28:10 <SpaceToast> the GPL is an attempt to take that bad thing and use it for other purposes
2019-04-18 23:28:13 <kaniini> anyway, WSL and Discord and all of it being "open" to FOSS projects is basically the drug dealer offering a free hit of crack
2019-04-18 23:28:35 <kaniini> once you're hooked, they own you
2019-04-18 23:28:37 <SpaceToast> the issue with your argument is that it has no evidence to back it up
2019-04-18 23:28:54 <SpaceToast> "it will give people that impression" - well if it did, it gave that impression to people that weren't switching
2019-04-18 23:28:56 <kaniini> yeah, because all the evidence is locked away behind NDAs
2019-04-18 23:29:01 <SpaceToast> "using discord will kill irc" - except all those times it hasn't
2019-04-18 23:29:18 <kaniini> i have seen *many* FOSS projects migrate from IRC to discord because it is "more convenient"
2019-04-18 23:29:20 <SpaceToast> so... you're saying danieli signed an NDA with discord?
2019-04-18 23:29:36 <kaniini> i'm saying the executives who decided to publish "discord <3 open source" have NDAs
2019-04-18 23:29:55 <SpaceToast> ok, and why do we care about those?
2019-04-18 23:30:10 <kaniini> because once you're on the platform and the majority of users adopt it, they own your ass
2019-04-18 23:30:18 <SpaceToast> except that's the part you're failing to demonstrate
2019-04-18 23:30:33 <SpaceToast> "the evidence is inaccessible to me" is not a substitute for evidence
2019-04-18 23:30:35 <kaniini> what is there to demonstrate?  it is a proprietary service
2019-04-18 23:30:48 <SpaceToast> that the majority of users jump to adopt something because it is available
2019-04-18 23:31:03 <kaniini> the cost of migrating away from discord to an equivalent libre service (say Mattermost for example)
2019-04-18 23:31:13 <kaniini> is higher than the cost of migrating IRC to Discord
2019-04-18 23:31:25 <SpaceToast> if the majority of users are jumping on to that train because it is so much nicer, perhaps we should improve the libre alternatives :)
2019-04-18 23:31:28 <kaniini> IRC to Discord, for the average person, is an easy sell.  IRC sucks with phones, Discord does not
2019-04-18 23:31:29 <SpaceToast> thankfully, that's not the reality
2019-04-18 23:31:35 <kaniini> it is the reality
2019-04-18 23:31:42 <SpaceToast> idk, I have a pretty good setup for irc on phones
2019-04-18 23:31:44 <kaniini> most of freenode's IRC channels are dead
2019-04-18 23:32:10 <SpaceToast> the only example I have is the one for gentoo, which did get an official irc server ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2019-04-18 23:32:15 <SpaceToast> and irc usage did not decline
2019-04-18 23:32:19 <SpaceToast> ... at all
2019-04-18 23:32:51 <SpaceToast> "a lot of irc channels are dead" !-> "discord is killing irc"
2019-04-18 23:33:01 <SpaceToast> "a lot of irc channels are dead" maybe -> "irc has issues"
2019-04-18 23:33:11 <SpaceToast> now, I don't think that latter one's necessarily true
2019-04-18 23:33:17 <kaniini> irc channels are dead because discord and slack capitalized on irc having issues
2019-04-18 23:33:23 <SpaceToast> I'm mostly pointing out the non-sequitur
2019-04-18 23:33:30 <kaniini> it isn't a non-sequitor
2019-04-18 23:33:40 <SpaceToast> so... discord and slack made something better, and some amount of people moved to it?
2019-04-18 23:33:49 <kaniini> yes, to the detriment of libre tools
2019-04-18 23:34:01 <kaniini> libre projects MUST dogfood
2019-04-18 23:34:02 <SpaceToast> so let's make a libre tool that's better than everything else :)
2019-04-18 23:34:19 <kaniini> there is already libre competition to discord/slack, in the form of mattermost
2019-04-18 23:34:24 <SpaceToast> mattermost sucks.
2019-04-18 23:34:24 <kaniini> but that does not get discussed
2019-04-18 23:34:28 <SpaceToast> let's make something that doesn't.
2019-04-18 23:34:37 <SpaceToast> yes, because it sucks.
2019-04-18 23:34:38 <kaniini> mattermost is not any worse than discord
2019-04-18 23:34:44 <SpaceToast> it... is
2019-04-18 23:34:49 <SpaceToast> mattermost is worse than irc
2019-04-18 23:35:01 <SpaceToast> have you used mattermost?
2019-04-18 23:35:05 <kaniini> yes, i use it every day
2019-04-18 23:35:08 <SpaceToast> okay
2019-04-18 23:35:13 <SpaceToast> I pushed to get it implemented at work
2019-04-18 23:35:16 <SpaceToast> then did that
2019-04-18 23:35:20 <SpaceToast> no one liked it.
2019-04-18 23:35:39 <kaniini> it has improved with recent versions
2019-04-18 23:35:44 <kaniini> look at it again
2019-04-18 23:35:59 <SpaceToast> "getting better years after the fact" is something that I'm used to hearing from corrupt AAA video game developers
2019-04-18 23:36:03 <SpaceToast> not good software projects.
2019-04-18 23:36:15 <kaniini> all software is crap in the beginning
2019-04-18 23:36:23 <kaniini> the prototype of apk-tools was shell scripts
2019-04-18 23:36:30 <SpaceToast> yeah, and that's fine
2019-04-18 23:36:34 <SpaceToast> abuild is STILL a shell script
2019-04-18 23:36:48 <kaniini> and so "getting better years after the fact" is the reality of all softwares
2019-04-18 23:36:52 <SpaceToast> "sucks" is not a question of what language you use, or specific issues
2019-04-18 23:37:07 <SpaceToast> "sucks" is a question of design philosophy
2019-04-18 23:37:13 <SpaceToast> specific issues can be fixed
2019-04-18 23:37:22 <SpaceToast> when the issues outnumber the pros, something is wrong with the development process
2019-04-18 23:37:39 <SpaceToast> good software usually has a sane philosophy, upon which the prototype is built, after which the issues are solved and new features are added
2019-04-18 23:37:45 <kaniini> ah, so we should endorse proprietary services instead
2019-04-18 23:37:47 <SpaceToast> my experience with mattermost was that it was fundamentally flawed
2019-04-18 23:37:47 <kaniini> ;)
2019-04-18 23:38:16 <SpaceToast> no, we should use everything available to reach the most audiences, while preferring the best libre variant
2019-04-18 23:38:30 <SpaceToast> this is something that is consistent with discord, but NOT consistent with twitter
2019-04-18 23:38:37 <SpaceToast> so I would be in favor of a fediverse alpinelinux account
2019-04-18 23:38:51 <kaniini> so go make one
2019-04-18 23:38:57 <SpaceToast> I'm not in a position to
2019-04-18 23:38:59 <SpaceToast> otherwise I would!
2019-04-18 23:39:04 <SpaceToast> maybe even on https://pleroma.site/ :)
2019-04-18 23:39:38 <SpaceToast> it makes sense to have the person responsible for the twitter account to be the same one for all other microblogging accounts (for sync)
2019-04-18 23:39:41 <kaniini> if i did not have 9001 other issues to juggle i would just fork alpine and be done with it
2019-04-18 23:39:44 <SpaceToast> right now that's ncopa, and he's quite busy
2019-04-18 23:39:56 <SpaceToast> however, in the future, hopefully we can have a social outreach team that can handle that type of work
2019-04-18 23:40:37 <SpaceToast> if I was to fork alpine, I'd probably reorganize the git structure, tbh
2019-04-18 23:40:51 <SpaceToast> just forking something is lame, make it better instead of just separating the namespaces ;)
2019-04-18 23:41:12 <kaniini> like, adelie is nice, but it is more of a opensuse-vs-fedora type affair
2019-04-18 23:41:28 <SpaceToast> adelie lacks docs
2019-04-18 23:41:29 <kaniini> i want alpine, just the alpine from 5 years ago
2019-04-18 23:41:34 <SpaceToast> even in a "wiki" sort of sense
2019-04-18 23:41:39 <kaniini> where alpine would not have embraced WSL
2019-04-18 23:41:42 <kaniini> or discord
2019-04-18 23:41:43 <SpaceToast> they're free to grab the stuff I write and modified though!
2019-04-18 23:41:45 <kaniini> or had a twitter
2019-04-18 23:41:48 <kaniini> or whatever
2019-04-18 23:42:03 <SpaceToast> (it's under CC-BY-SA for the text, iirc)
2019-04-18 23:42:07 <kaniini> at this point i am just expecting for alpine to start including non-free software in the repos
2019-04-18 23:42:16 <SpaceToast> non-free/ is a thing, you know ;)
2019-04-18 23:42:18 <SpaceToast> and has been for a while, afaik
2019-04-18 23:42:22 <kaniini> yes
2019-04-18 23:42:26 <kaniini> what i mean is
2019-04-18 23:42:29 <kaniini> i am expecting that to disappear
2019-04-18 23:42:33 <kaniini> and just be in community
2019-04-18 23:42:36 <kaniini> :)
2019-04-18 23:42:38 <SpaceToast> eh, there's value in keeping it separated
2019-04-18 23:42:46 <SpaceToast> because there's no point in building binaries
2019-04-18 23:43:09 <SpaceToast> also, if you're worried about that, you should see ddevault's crusade against the SSPL :)
2019-04-18 23:43:21 <SpaceToast> (which isn't even up for OSI approval anymore, so he was right in the end)
2019-04-18 23:43:21 <kaniini> it doesnt matter
2019-04-18 23:43:35 <SpaceToast> "actions don't matter, my perception does"? ;)
2019-04-18 23:43:45 <kaniini> ddevault is not an alpine developer
2019-04-18 23:44:02 <SpaceToast> the very term "developer" is quite muddy and up in the air right now
2019-04-18 23:44:11 <SpaceToast> he certainly does a lot of things for not-a-dev
2019-04-18 23:44:13 <kaniini> ddevault does not have access to alpine infrastructure
2019-04-18 23:44:21 <kaniini> ddevault cannot commit to git repos
2019-04-18 23:44:26 <SpaceToast> neither does a good chunk of people with push access to git (re: infra)
2019-04-18 23:44:51 <SpaceToast> if anything, that should be encouraging to you
2019-04-18 23:44:56 <SpaceToast> because his crusade met its goal
2019-04-18 23:45:02 <SpaceToast> so not only did HE hold that opinion
2019-04-18 23:45:07 <SpaceToast> someone with push access agreed
2019-04-18 23:45:54 <kaniini> doesnt matter
2019-04-18 23:45:56 <kaniini> because
2019-04-18 23:45:59 <kaniini> docker inc will want it
2019-04-18 23:46:02 <kaniini> or ibm will want it
2019-04-18 23:46:06 <kaniini> and it will happen anyway
2019-04-18 23:46:09 <SpaceToast> they can always build it :)
2019-04-18 23:46:12 <SpaceToast> from non-free/
2019-04-18 23:46:17 <SpaceToast> which is where it is right now
2019-04-18 23:46:32 <kaniini> yeah until management decides to tell ncopa
2019-04-18 23:46:38 <kaniini> mongodb is in community
2019-04-18 23:46:40 <kaniini> or you are fired
2019-04-18 23:46:44 <SpaceToast> you make predictions and statements that infer internal knowledge
2019-04-18 23:46:50 <kaniini> yes, i have internal knowledge
2019-04-18 23:47:02 <SpaceToast> didn't you leave to be able to give that out? ;)
2019-04-18 23:47:11 <SpaceToast> then again, the "why I left" line keeps changing every time you say it
2019-04-18 23:47:23 <kaniini> i gave out the relevant information at the time
2019-04-18 23:47:42 <SpaceToast> sure, the relevant information is "X and Y is happening." - with little elaboration
2019-04-18 23:47:59 <kaniini> the point is
2019-04-18 23:48:06 <kaniini> time and time again, whatever docker or ibm want from alpine
2019-04-18 23:48:10 <kaniini> docker or ibm get from alpine
2019-04-18 23:48:26 <SpaceToast> ok, can you give a few examples of that happening which directly contradicts alpine's goals and guiding principles?
2019-04-18 23:48:28 <kaniini> because there are people with push access who will be fired if they don't comply
2019-04-18 23:48:50 <kaniini> so far, the requests have been compliant with those principles
2019-04-18 23:49:01 <SpaceToast> so... docker/ibm give suggestions that make alpine better
2019-04-18 23:49:05 <kaniini> no
2019-04-18 23:49:07 <SpaceToast> and those suggestions are implemented?
2019-04-18 23:49:22 <kaniini> in one case, it involved keeping a version held back
2019-04-18 23:49:28 <kaniini> for the purpose of docker EE
2019-04-18 23:49:39 <SpaceToast> in edge, or in a release?
2019-04-18 23:49:54 <kaniini> in edge
2019-04-18 23:50:02 <SpaceToast> hmm, that's no good
2019-04-18 23:50:31 <kaniini> we wound up having to fix the underlying issue ourselves to get that issue solved
2019-04-18 23:50:47 <kaniini> all so docker and ibm could announce docker's linuxkit working on s390x
2019-04-18 23:51:28 <SpaceToast> however, something I'd like to point out is
2019-04-18 23:51:35 <SpaceToast> this is how much docker and ibm could get done
2019-04-18 23:51:43 <SpaceToast> while literally paying the effective benevolent dictator of the project
2019-04-18 23:52:04 <SpaceToast> are you sure discord is going to take ownership because an official community outreach server exists on their platform
2019-04-18 23:52:07 <SpaceToast> instead of 50 unofficial ones?
2019-04-18 23:52:58 <kaniini> discord will take ownership of those users
2019-04-18 23:53:06 <kaniini> which means when a libre alternative comes along
2019-04-18 23:53:17 <kaniini> those users will be locked in to discord because their friends are on discord
2019-04-18 23:53:39 <kaniini> instead of on a libre alternative where it does not matter where their friends are
2019-04-18 23:53:47 <kaniini> and yes, this is a problem with using freenode too
2019-04-18 23:54:01 <SpaceToast> users won't join discord to participate in alpine
2019-04-18 23:54:10 <SpaceToast> they'll join the primary alpine medium (irc)
2019-04-18 23:54:20 <kaniini> and what i am telling you is
2019-04-18 23:54:22 <SpaceToast> the expectation is that EXISTING discord users will join that server
2019-04-18 23:54:26 <kaniini> they will shift to discord
2019-04-18 23:54:27 <SpaceToast> therefore nothing was lost
2019-04-18 23:54:29 <kaniini> and quit using irc
2019-04-18 23:54:33 <kaniini> because
2019-04-18 23:54:38 <kaniini> most users who are on both
2019-04-18 23:54:39 <kaniini> will be like
2019-04-18 23:54:46 <kaniini> "thank fuck, i dont have to deal with IRC anymore"
2019-04-18 23:54:52 <SpaceToast> 
ACTION sighs

2019-04-18 23:54:55 <SpaceToast> ok, let's do this a bit simpler
2019-04-18 23:55:07 <SpaceToast> there is about 20 people across all #alpine- channels that are relatively regular
2019-04-18 23:55:14 <SpaceToast> how many of those do we expect to switch?
2019-04-18 23:55:28 <kaniini> it depends on timeframe
2019-04-18 23:55:37 <kaniini> if there are people using discord that the irc folks need to talk to
2019-04-18 23:55:40 <kaniini> they will adopt discord
2019-04-18 23:55:44 <SpaceToast> I expect at most 1, since most of them use alpine to discuss development details
2019-04-18 23:55:47 <kaniini> and then irc will have less value
2019-04-18 23:55:49 <SpaceToast> which are only done on irc
2019-04-18 23:55:54 <SpaceToast> because irc is the official canonical medium
2019-04-18 23:55:57 <kaniini> only done in irc right *now*
2019-04-18 23:56:08 <SpaceToast> and that's not going to change, because the official canonical medium isn't changing either
2019-04-18 23:56:12 <kaniini> it only takes a few useful idiots
2019-04-18 23:56:14 <kaniini> to change that
2019-04-18 23:56:20 <kaniini> because they can be like
2019-04-18 23:56:25 <kaniini> "we have nice git commit hooks for discord"
2019-04-18 23:56:35 <SpaceToast> we have nice git commit hooks for #alpine-commits :)
2019-04-18 23:56:38 <kaniini> case in point
2019-04-18 23:56:40 <kaniini> github
2019-04-18 23:56:53 <kaniini> microsoft own the primary contribution channel to alpine
2019-04-18 23:56:54 <SpaceToast> the advantage of being the canonical medium is that you actually have all of the integration there
2019-04-18 23:57:00 <kaniini> because of github
2019-04-18 23:57:07 <SpaceToast> I've spoken out in the past in favor of switching, I remain in such favor
2019-04-18 23:57:13 <kaniini> yeah but
2019-04-18 23:57:19 <kaniini> contributions will be less
2019-04-18 23:57:21 <kaniini> if you switch
2019-04-18 23:57:23 <SpaceToast> I was originally unsure of what we should switch *to*, but at this point I think a gitlab.alpinelinux.org looks nice
2019-04-18 23:57:24 <kaniini> because there is friction
2019-04-18 23:57:37 <SpaceToast> nothing is stopping us from existing on both
2019-04-18 23:57:43 <SpaceToast> gitlab supports push-mirroring
2019-04-18 23:57:58 <SpaceToast> as I said, more better, not less worse ;)
2019-04-18 23:58:01 <kaniini> what stops you is that people are going to commit to one or the other
2019-04-18 23:58:09 <SpaceToast> people do not currently commit to github
2019-04-18 23:58:13 <SpaceToast> people commit to git.a.o
2019-04-18 23:58:17 <SpaceToast> I do not expect this to change
2019-04-18 23:58:19 <kaniini> there's nothing stopping alpine-aports mailing list from existing
2019-04-18 23:58:22 <kaniini> but guess what
2019-04-18 23:58:25 <kaniini> nobody cares about it
2019-04-18 23:58:30 <kaniini> they send those PRs in
2019-04-18 23:58:36 <SpaceToast> except for rnalrd, who single-handedly keeps up with it :)
2019-04-18 23:58:42 <kaniini> exactly
2019-04-18 23:58:44 <kaniini> this is my point
2019-04-18 23:58:49 <kaniini> microsoft own the contribution channel
2019-04-18 23:58:55 <kaniini> if you open a gitlab to replace it
2019-04-18 23:59:01 <kaniini> developers have to commit to using it
2019-04-18 23:59:05 <kaniini> otherwise it changes nothing
2019-04-18 23:59:13 <SpaceToast> again, you commit against the git repo
2019-04-18 23:59:20 <SpaceToast> what interface you use to access it is irrelevant
2019-04-18 23:59:32 <kaniini> and there you go, justifying this lock in
2019-04-18 23:59:36 <SpaceToast> the git repo is not on github ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2019-04-18 23:59:45 <SpaceToast> there is no lock-in
2019-04-18 23:59:47 <kaniini> yes, i know where the canonical git repo is
2019-04-18 23:59:55 <SpaceToast> and that's the ONLY place commits actually get put
2019-04-19 00:00:01 <kaniini> i am also aware of that
2019-04-19 00:00:13 <kaniini> but that does not change the fact that PULL REQUESTS ON GITHUB
2019-04-19 00:00:16 <SpaceToast> if github was to close, users would need to contribute differently
2019-04-19 00:00:18 <SpaceToast> sure
2019-04-19 00:00:19 <kaniini> is the primary contribution channel
2019-04-19 00:00:21 <SpaceToast> so?
2019-04-19 00:01:03 <kaniini> if you want to change this, then you have to convince devs to use the alternative
2019-04-19 00:01:09 <kaniini> period
2019-04-19 00:01:14 <SpaceToast> devs already have to use git.a.o
2019-04-19 00:01:18 <SpaceToast> no matter what
2019-04-19 00:01:19 <kaniini> yes, to push
2019-04-19 00:01:25 <kaniini> you're not understanding
2019-04-19 00:01:35 <SpaceToast> let's start clearing up nomenclature
2019-04-19 00:01:43 <SpaceToast> when you say "devs", do you mean "alpine developer", or "contributor"?
2019-04-19 00:01:53 <kaniini> i mean everyone involved
2019-04-19 00:01:59 <kaniini> because the people who can PUSH to the REPO
2019-04-19 00:02:04 <kaniini> have to go to GITHUB to get the patches
2019-04-19 00:02:06 <SpaceToast> then you're saying multiple things in a single section
2019-04-19 00:02:09 <kaniini> and the people who CONTRIBUE
2019-04-19 00:02:12 <kaniini> also have to go to GITHUB
2019-04-19 00:02:17 <kaniini> to get reviewed
2019-04-19 00:02:28 <kaniini> so you can install gitlab and it does not matter
2019-04-19 00:02:30 <SpaceToast> developers have to go to wherever the patches are to get the patches
2019-04-19 00:02:32 <kaniini> because nobody will use it
2019-04-19 00:02:34 <kaniini> yes
2019-04-19 00:02:37 <SpaceToast> whether that be the ML, a pastebin, or github
2019-04-19 00:02:41 <kaniini> and then patches will remain flowing into github
2019-04-19 00:02:48 <SpaceToast> the contributors will go to whatever is available and is the most convenient
2019-04-19 00:02:51 <kaniini> and developers will continue not caring about ML
2019-04-19 00:02:54 <kaniini> yes
2019-04-19 00:02:55 <SpaceToast> if they find github to be the most convenient, that's fine
2019-04-19 00:02:57 <kaniini> exactly
2019-04-19 00:02:58 <SpaceToast> if github closes
2019-04-19 00:02:59 <kaniini> and thus
2019-04-19 00:03:00 <SpaceToast> that stops being the most convenient
2019-04-19 00:03:02 <kaniini> *thus*
2019-04-19 00:03:03 <SpaceToast> so they go somewhere else
2019-04-19 00:03:09 <SpaceToast> in short, there is no lock-in
2019-04-19 00:03:09 <kaniini> it is the same scenario with discord
2019-04-19 00:03:33 <SpaceToast> so what you're saying is, "people hate irc because it sucks, let's forcefully keep them from going elsewhere"?
2019-04-19 00:03:42 <SpaceToast> I don't think I agree with any part of that sentence :0
2019-04-19 00:03:44 <kaniini> no, i am saying implement alternatives that are libre
2019-04-19 00:03:46 <kaniini> xmpp
2019-04-19 00:03:47 <kaniini> matrix
2019-04-19 00:03:48 <kaniini> something
2019-04-19 00:03:50 <SpaceToast> xmpp is crap
2019-04-19 00:03:54 <SpaceToast> matrix is crap *and* insecure
2019-04-19 00:03:57 <kaniini> sure
2019-04-19 00:04:07 <kaniini> but you can't depend on proprietary services for security anyway
2019-04-19 00:04:08 <SpaceToast> let's make an alternative that doesn't suck, and will be better than everything else on the market, and move to that
2019-04-19 00:04:10 <SpaceToast> I'm in favor.
2019-04-19 00:04:13 <SpaceToast> let's go.,
2019-04-19 00:04:23 <kaniini> well
2019-04-19 00:04:26 <kaniini> i am working on that
2019-04-19 00:04:35 <kaniini> but i have about a billion other things to do
2019-04-19 00:04:36 <SpaceToast> I don't think pleroma counts as a chat system ;)
2019-04-19 00:04:55 <kaniini> pleroma has real-time chat capabilities as well as microblogging
2019-04-19 00:05:14 <kaniini> but streamingInbox needs to be finished for it to scale
2019-04-19 00:05:17 <kaniini> anyway
2019-04-19 00:05:20 <kaniini> point is
2019-04-19 00:05:24 <kaniini> i have a billion other things to do
2019-04-19 00:05:34 <kaniini> there is also litecord, which is a discord server emulator
2019-04-19 00:05:59 <SpaceToast> "emulating X" is not how to be better
2019-04-19 00:06:05 <SpaceToast> "emulating X" is how you fail at being good
2019-04-19 00:06:08 <SpaceToast> see: mattermost
2019-04-19 00:06:18 <SpaceToast> as long as mattermost tries to be "slack but FOSS", it will fail to be better than slack.
2019-04-19 00:07:16 <kaniini> sure
2019-04-19 00:14:20 <kaniini> SpaceToast: i mean, the gist of it is
2019-04-19 00:14:47 <kaniini> i feel like alpine should not undermine future opportunities by embracing proprietary services now
2019-04-19 00:15:14 <SpaceToast> making something available, and making sure you have control over != embracing
2019-04-19 00:15:16 <kaniini> alpine is one of the few distributions left that has mainstream attractiveness and has historically advanced the cause of free software
2019-04-19 00:20:50 <SpaceToast> advancing the cause of free software does not require actively berating everything that isn't free software
2019-04-19 00:20:59 <SpaceToast> this comes back down to copyleft vs bsd
2019-04-19 00:21:21 <SpaceToast> and my understanding is that alpine always modeled after freebsd, to some degree (and was a gentoo derivative, at some point, which also has those roots)
2019-04-19 00:22:13 <kaniini> not true
2019-04-19 00:22:20 <kaniini> alpine has always been strongly in support of copyleft
2019-04-19 00:22:27 <kaniini> you don't see any of the tools being BSD do you
2019-04-19 00:22:32 <SpaceToast> aports
2019-04-19 00:22:34 <SpaceToast> ports
2019-04-19 00:22:37 <SpaceToast> the ports tree...
2019-04-19 00:22:44 <SpaceToast> where does that nomenclature come from...
2019-04-19 00:23:05 <SpaceToast> ncopa's original idea for the internal reorg was also to model it after freebsd
2019-04-19 00:23:07 <SpaceToast> as well as for the docs
2019-04-19 00:23:15 <SpaceToast> (I modeled them after gentoo, which, still..)
2019-04-19 00:23:19 <kaniini> and that is incompatible with copyleft why?
2019-04-19 00:23:26 <SpaceToast> it isn't
2019-04-19 00:23:32 <kaniini> exactly
2019-04-19 00:23:33 <SpaceToast> copyleft is incompatible with other things
2019-04-19 00:23:45 <SpaceToast> I'm fine with advancing copyleft software
2019-04-19 00:23:51 <SpaceToast> it's copyleft that has a problem with things that are not also copyleft :)
2019-04-19 00:24:10 <SpaceToast> in its attempt to "protect" and "provide safety", it swallows everything up, purposefully and deliberately
2019-04-19 00:24:14 <SpaceToast> but hey, if it's better, let's go!
2019-04-19 00:25:11 <kaniini> that's not true.  i am a copyleft advocate, but pkgconf is ISC-licensed.
2019-04-19 00:25:54 <SpaceToast> but can pkgconf statically link against anything that is GPL?
2019-04-19 00:26:53 <SpaceToast> or LGPL, for that matter.
2019-04-19 00:29:56 <kaniini> yes, it can.
2019-04-19 00:30:33 <SpaceToast> https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#GPLStaticVsDynamic FSF disagrees
2019-04-19 00:58:38 <kaniini> you assume i care if a binary becomes GPL
2019-04-19 00:58:39 <kaniini> i do not
2019-04-19 00:58:42 <SpaceToast> heya mort___
2019-04-19 00:58:58 <SpaceToast> the binary does not become GPL, the source of pkgconf would have to become GPL in this scenario in order to be compliant
2019-04-19 00:59:10 <SpaceToast> in short, the GPL actively seeks to consume other projects and convert them to GPL
2019-04-19 00:59:33 <SpaceToast> as such, I have to consider the GPL to be hypocritical - it claims to stand for freedom, but instead it becomes "only the kind of freedom I approve of"
2019-04-19 00:59:49 <SpaceToast> which is the very source of the disagreement - more freedom, not less what-I-consider-not-to-be-free
2019-04-19 00:59:55 <SpaceToast> more better, not less worse :)
2019-04-19 05:20:04 <[[sroracle]]> 23:41:28 <@SpaceToast> adelie lacks docs
2019-04-19 05:20:06 <[[sroracle]]> 23:41:34 <@SpaceToast> even in a "wiki" sort of sense
2019-04-19 05:20:14 <[[sroracle]]> i would like to point out that this is simply not true
2019-04-19 05:20:20 <[[sroracle]]> https://help.adelielinux.org/
2019-04-19 05:21:26 <[[sroracle]]> Adélie has much more substantial docs than Alpine in some areas right now
2019-04-19 12:52:44 <SpaceToast> https://help.adelielinux.org/html/install/ isn't very complete, last I checked (and now) :)
2019-04-19 15:34:18 <[[sroracle]]> Right, because A. Wilcox has mostly focused on writing the developer handbook
2019-04-19 15:35:35 <SpaceToast> fair enough :)
2019-04-19 15:35:52 <SpaceToast> I do think that the user handbook should have priority, seeing as developers are fewer in number and can be talked to, though
2019-04-19 15:36:07 <SpaceToast> (given my approach to writing alpine's docs, it shouldn't be much of a surprise that I see it that way either)
2019-04-25 11:20:27 <mort___> SpaceToast: http://tpaste.us/Kgk9
2019-04-25 11:20:37 <SpaceToast> ty
2019-04-25 11:20:57 <mort___> `nordrand` boot option or `random.trust_cpu=[on|off]` i believe
2019-04-25 13:14:59 <SpaceToast> https://brpaste.xyz/57e70w looks good?
2019-04-25 13:15:06 <SpaceToast> (I should be sufficiently caffeinated now)
2019-04-25 13:16:57 <ncopa> LGTM, not sure we should mention that it only affects early boot
2019-04-25 13:17:26 <SpaceToast> imo people that care would consider it to permanently taint the system
2019-04-25 13:17:31 <SpaceToast> and people that don't care don't care :)
2019-04-25 13:17:49 <ncopa> i think its good as it is
2019-04-25 13:17:53 <SpaceToast> ok
2019-04-25 13:18:00 <SpaceToast> gonna push it as is then
2019-04-26 03:23:06 <clandmeter> morning
2019-04-26 03:23:19 <clandmeter> SpaceToast: the new theme didnt get applied yet?
2019-04-26 03:23:34 <SpaceToast> hey clandmeter, _ikke_ never got back to me with the release zip
2019-04-26 03:23:57 <SpaceToast> but it's really not that significantly different that I'm in a hurry to get it published (pre beta. -> .)
2019-04-26 03:24:14 <clandmeter> ok, what needs to be done?
2019-04-26 03:24:23 <clandmeter> i can give it a go if its not muc hwork
2019-04-26 03:25:23 <SpaceToast> the theme has to be built every push (using `gulp bundle`), this will create a file relative to the repo (`build/ui-bundle.zip`)
2019-04-26 03:25:31 <SpaceToast> that file needs to be accessible through http
2019-04-26 03:25:34 <SpaceToast> that's about it thought
2019-04-26 03:28:05 <SpaceToast> (note: available externally; since we want everything to be buildable outside of infra)
2019-04-26 03:28:08 <clandmeter> ok let me add that cmd
2019-04-26 03:28:26 <clandmeter> push of which repo?
2019-04-26 03:28:54 <SpaceToast> https://git.alpinelinux.org/user/daniel/alpine-antora-theme/ right now
2019-04-26 03:29:07 <SpaceToast> eventually (when we make one from scratch) it should be under docs/alpine-antora-theme
2019-04-26 03:29:24 <clandmeter> ah ok
2019-04-26 03:29:51 <clandmeter> so we are currently not doing anything with that repo
2019-04-26 03:30:12 <SpaceToast> yeah
2019-04-26 03:30:16 <SpaceToast> it's a new development :)
2019-04-26 03:30:24 <SpaceToast> it doesn't need to be built on the same system that hosts the docs though
2019-04-26 03:30:29 <SpaceToast> one advantage of working over http!
2019-04-26 03:30:30 <clandmeter> does daniel still want to develop on this?
2019-04-26 03:30:42 <SpaceToast> I don't know, but he was basically done last time we spoke
2019-04-26 03:30:51 <clandmeter> looks like he moved out of this channel
2019-04-26 03:30:55 <SpaceToast> it's mostly a modification of the top navigation bar, so it's publishable
2019-04-26 03:31:14 <SpaceToast> it's probably not what we want as the final product, but it's good enough that that can wait
2019-04-26 03:31:16 <clandmeter> does it make sense to copy to ths docs space?
2019-04-26 03:31:34 <clandmeter> copy this to docs space
2019-04-26 03:31:45 <SpaceToast> I think I'd ideally like to reserve the docs/ namespace for the actual from-scratch theme
2019-04-26 03:33:22 <clandmeter> ok but if this repo is never updated anyore , i dont see the need for automatioon
2019-04-26 03:34:01 <SpaceToast> the automation is so we can easily deploy the new one later
2019-04-26 03:34:10 <SpaceToast> it'll just be a matter of switching the source :)
2019-04-26 04:35:33 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: sorry, totally forgot about that :(
2019-04-26 04:35:42 <SpaceToast> no worries :)
2019-04-26 08:17:22 <mort___> SpaceToast: apologies, I'm a bit flaky on IRC (too many interrupts :/ LGTM, only thing I might add would be something that says you may find boot times dramatically increase if you do disable RDRAND and you don't have other entropy sources available...?
2019-04-26 14:06:14 <SpaceToast> heya mort___ - I'd recommend using a bouncer for helping with that; znc is a particularly well-known one
2019-04-26 14:06:42 <SpaceToast> the user handbook is intended for people that actually need help installing stuff; and as a "quick reference" for people that know what they're doing
2019-04-26 14:06:50 <SpaceToast> so just a recommendation to not turn it off is sufficient, imo
2019-04-26 14:06:56 <SpaceToast> if they want to know why they can always ask later :)
2019-04-26 14:07:02 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: Trying to get your release zip done tonight
2019-04-26 14:07:10 <SpaceToast> thanks _ikke_ :)
2019-04-26 14:10:22 <ncopa> i think we may need some committers docs
2019-04-26 14:10:28 <ncopa> sooner than later
2019-04-26 14:10:39 <ncopa> to help on-board new committers
2019-04-26 14:11:13 <ncopa> it should help new committers to get started
2019-04-26 14:11:38 <ncopa> i think it may make sense to have it separated from the rest of the developers handbook?
2019-04-26 14:11:54 <ncopa> or be a part of it?
2019-04-26 14:11:57 <ncopa> a section
2019-04-26 14:14:54 <SpaceToast> ncopa: that was the original intent of the developers handbook
2019-04-26 14:15:12 <SpaceToast> I started putting the governance stuff in there because, well, knowing how to join the project is likely related
2019-04-26 14:15:31 <SpaceToast> now I'm thinking it might make sense to move that out and link to it instead, but I don't want to move it out while people may still be discussing it
2019-04-26 14:15:54 <ncopa> i dont think it matters if you move it out
2019-04-26 14:16:12 <ncopa> you can simply replace it with a link sayin "this is still under development" or similar
2019-04-26 14:16:34 <SpaceToast> well, I can't really replace it very well if I'm going to be putting things into the newly emptied space :)
2019-04-26 14:16:42 <SpaceToast> anyway, what do you think the current contents should be called?
2019-04-26 14:16:54 <ncopa> so im thinking
2019-04-26 14:17:09 <ncopa> a new dev comes to the proj and want to contribute
2019-04-26 14:17:24 <ncopa> the dev doc should probably start with that
2019-04-26 14:17:26 <ncopa> from there
2019-04-26 14:17:35 <SpaceToast> yup
2019-04-26 14:17:39 <SpaceToast> that was my intent from the start :)
2019-04-26 14:17:41 <ncopa> how to get started, where to find the references
2019-04-26 14:17:43 <SpaceToast> (and as a reference for people that forgot stuff)
2019-04-26 14:17:44 <ncopa> etc
2019-04-26 14:17:55 <SpaceToast> so making a more official (and maintained) APKBUILD reference, so on, so forth
2019-04-26 14:17:55 <ncopa> how to create patch
2019-04-26 14:17:59 <ncopa> how to submit patch
2019-04-26 14:18:11 <ncopa> how to deal with the review process etc
2019-04-26 14:18:20 <SpaceToast> speaking of review process
2019-04-26 14:18:23 <SpaceToast> as an open question:
2019-04-26 14:18:32 <ncopa> and then a separate section when the user has become a developer
2019-04-26 14:18:35 <ncopa> with git push access
2019-04-26 14:18:41 <ncopa> not everyone will get git push access
2019-04-26 14:18:47 <SpaceToast> would it help deal with the PRs if I spent some time regularly reviewing aports PRs? (as a contributor, rather than a member?)
2019-04-26 14:19:01 <ncopa> so i think i makes sense to keep that part separate
2019-04-26 14:19:08 <SpaceToast> i.e so people with push don't need to waste time looking at obvious faults, or obviously ok things
2019-04-26 14:19:50 <SpaceToast> ncopa: I'm planning to have one section for "how to deal with push access", one section on "how to work with people that have push access", and have everything else be technical things (like APKBUILD Reference, how to use abuild, etc)
2019-04-26 14:19:58 <ncopa> ok
2019-04-26 14:20:08 <ncopa> to answer your question, yes i think it would help
2019-04-26 14:20:17 <SpaceToast> ok
2019-04-26 14:20:31 <SpaceToast> I think I'll spend half an hour every day on which I submit a PR doing that, then
2019-04-26 14:20:45 <ncopa> i think it also would help if you simply did a review and did "approved"
2019-04-26 14:20:52 <SpaceToast> got the idea when north1 (to my surprise) decided to review my latest minio PR
2019-04-26 14:21:04 <SpaceToast> thought if it might actually be a useful idea :)
2019-04-26 14:21:06 <ncopa> because then we can spend less time on reviewing it
2019-04-26 14:21:14 <SpaceToast> ok
2019-04-26 14:21:15 <ncopa> yes
2019-04-26 14:21:26 <ncopa> i think what north1 did is useful
2019-04-26 14:21:48 <SpaceToast> I'll keep to the on-source PRs rather than poke #a-d though
2019-04-26 14:22:03 <ncopa> because, i have looked at what north1 has done so far and it is pretty good
2019-04-26 14:22:10 <SpaceToast> regarding requests for changes: should I not-review, or should I follow my best judgement when asking for changes?
2019-04-26 14:22:15 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: Before I had push access, I had the feeling reviewing did not contribute a lot, but now the quicker packages are into shape, the easier it is to push them
2019-04-26 14:23:27 <ncopa> i think what may be tricky is the grey area cases
2019-04-26 14:23:42 <ncopa> when its not 100% good, not perfect
2019-04-26 14:23:45 <ncopa> and could be better
2019-04-26 14:23:49 <ncopa> but may be good enough
2019-04-26 14:23:54 <_ikke_> yes, those are always the hard cases
2019-04-26 14:24:04 <ncopa> or maybe almost good enough
2019-04-26 14:24:05 <_ikke_> mostly subjective
2019-04-26 14:24:53 <ncopa> might be a good idea to stay away from those initially
2019-04-26 14:25:09 <ncopa> start with the easy cases
2019-04-26 14:25:24 <SpaceToast> fair enough :)
2019-04-26 14:25:40 <SpaceToast> one more question: should I try to build the target of the PR, or simply look at the contents?
2019-04-26 14:26:00 <SpaceToast> (mostly thinking of the "semi-trivial" cases, e.g rust bootstrapping might be a bit of a pain to build, but the pr might just be a version bump)
2019-04-26 14:26:14 <ncopa> i think you can decide that yourself
2019-04-26 14:26:24 <ncopa> in the rust case, it may make sense to build it yourself
2019-04-26 14:26:34 <ncopa> if the CI fails, then it may make sense to build yourself
2019-04-26 14:26:45 <_ikke_> I typically look at the CI output for any build warnings
2019-04-26 14:26:46 <ncopa> if CI is green, it may be ok to just look at it
2019-04-26 14:27:05 <SpaceToast> ok
2019-04-26 14:27:11 <ncopa> if you are in doubt that it breaks ABI and require rebuilds of other packages, then you may want check that and build locally
2019-04-26 14:27:16 <SpaceToast> I feel a bit embarrassed because I had actually forgotten we have CI
2019-04-26 14:27:21 <tcely> When CI works it'd be useful to be able to access built packages in some way.
2019-04-26 14:27:35 <SpaceToast> does drone support artifacts?
2019-04-26 14:27:42 <ncopa> oh, drone will actually run checkapk
2019-04-26 14:27:43 <SpaceToast> if it does it shouldn't be very hard, at least I would think so
2019-04-26 14:28:46 <_ikke_> Initial scan of the documentation does not seem to indicate that
2019-04-26 14:30:07 <tcely> FME, drone docs do not fully express capabilities
2019-04-26 14:30:30 <SpaceToast> tcely: looked at https://discourse.drone.io/t/how-to-access-the-built-artifacts/1148
2019-04-26 14:30:48 <SpaceToast> so we'd need to run our own s3 instance or something; maybe push-only with size limiting?
2019-04-26 14:30:58 <SpaceToast> or we could just not ^^;;
2019-04-26 14:41:49 <tcely> http://plugins.drone.io/drillster/drone-rsync/
2019-04-26 14:42:35 <tcely> If you prefer S3 then use it, but just getting packages onto a web server should be easy.
2019-04-26 14:42:43 <_ikke_> If we switch to gitlab, it's built-in
2019-04-26 14:42:47 <SpaceToast> ^
2019-04-26 14:42:52 <SpaceToast> and that's not quite what I meant tcely
2019-04-26 14:43:09 <SpaceToast> what I meant is that in other variants, the CI server actually serves the packages
2019-04-26 14:43:19 <SpaceToast> i.e you go to "artifacts" and press "download" :)
2019-04-26 14:43:57 <tcely> FWIU, drone is not likely to add that.
2019-04-26 14:44:06 <SpaceToast> aye, I'm aware :)
2019-04-26 14:44:17 <SpaceToast> that was the point of my link
2019-04-26 14:44:37 <SpaceToast> re: gitlab, my experience with gitlab-runner is a bit spotty
2019-04-26 14:44:43 <SpaceToast> but you can integrate jenkins in quite well
2019-04-26 14:44:43 <tcely> I'm happy with that decision since running my own drone server required fewer resources.
2019-04-26 14:45:04 <SpaceToast> and my experience with jenkins has been highly positive, as well as that of my various contacts that have used it
2019-04-26 14:54:51 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: we use gitlab here with gitlab-runners, they work perfectly for us
2019-04-26 14:55:13 <SpaceToast> here being your $dayjob, I assume?
2019-04-26 14:55:17 <_ikke_> yes
2019-04-26 14:55:27 <SpaceToast> but yeah, if someone handles the gitlab-runner stuff properly, that's great ^^
2019-04-26 14:55:33 <SpaceToast> it just had some lacking features for my $dayjob
2019-04-26 14:55:44 <SpaceToast> (jenkins has a lot of those "killer feature" stuff, that's hidden in the docs)
2019-04-26 14:55:57 <SpaceToast> I'd imagine gitlab-runner is more than good enough for most use-cases though :)
2019-04-26 15:03:44 <_ikke_> I'd imagine that as well
2019-04-26 15:10:36 <SpaceToast> one thing I'd like to wait for (even if we do switch to gitlab) is for them to support psql scram-sha-256 / psql 11
2019-04-26 15:10:42 <SpaceToast> since, well, they still don't :(
2019-04-26 17:29:21 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: ping
2019-04-26 17:30:05 <SpaceToast> pong
2019-04-26 17:30:55 <SpaceToast> _ikke_: if it's about the release zip, I'll test it now, but won't be able to commit (for obvious reasons) until I'm off work :)
2019-04-26 17:31:00 <SpaceToast> but I'll tell you if it looks good or not
2019-04-26 17:31:53 <_ikke_> It is, was just trying to get the details clear
2019-04-26 17:32:00 <SpaceToast> oh, ok
2019-04-26 17:32:06 <SpaceToast> what's unclear?
2019-04-26 17:32:16 <_ikke_> Just to make sure I understand it
2019-04-26 17:32:51 <_ikke_> You need the latest version pushed to the antora theme repo published via a static webserver?
2019-04-26 17:33:13 <_ikke_> So similar what is already done for docs, minus building anyhting?
2019-04-26 17:33:23 <SpaceToast> no, no, there's a build process
2019-04-26 17:33:39 <_ikke_> Yes, mqtt-exec is setup in that container
2019-04-26 17:33:40 <SpaceToast> in fact you can treat it like a binary
2019-04-26 17:34:06 <SpaceToast> on push to the antora theme repo (will later be changed once we have one made from scratch), `gulp bundle` has to be ran inside the repo
2019-04-26 17:34:11 <_ikke_> Oh, you mentioned gulp right?
2019-04-26 17:34:32 <SpaceToast> that will then generate a file under `build/ui-bundle.zip`
2019-04-26 17:34:34 <SpaceToast> yeah
2019-04-26 17:34:46 <SpaceToast> that file then needs to be available externally (and internally, of course) over http
2019-04-26 17:35:27 <_ikke_> and then the docs build process consumes that zip?
2019-04-26 17:35:31 <SpaceToast> yes
2019-04-26 17:35:51 <SpaceToast> this is the "playbook" file: https://git.alpinelinux.org/docs/docs.a.o/tree/site.yml
2019-04-26 17:35:56 <SpaceToast> see the `ui` section
2019-04-26 17:36:06 <SpaceToast> basically I'd be changing the url to one that points to somewhere under a.o
2019-04-26 17:36:14 <_ikke_> Can it also be a local file resource?
2019-04-26 17:36:15 <SpaceToast> (instead of gitlab-runner's output for the default ui)
2019-04-26 17:36:27 <SpaceToast> it can, but then no one can build our docs (me included!) without being literally on the system
2019-04-26 17:36:29 <SpaceToast> that's no good :)
2019-04-26 17:36:36 <_ikke_> makes sense
2019-04-26 17:37:31 <_ikke_> It helps to understand the actual process
2019-04-26 17:37:44 <SpaceToast> I'm not sure what `gulp bundle` actually does, to be honest
2019-04-26 17:37:52 <SpaceToast> I'd have to look into their weird js makefile thing
2019-04-26 17:38:46 <_ikke_> "Clean, lint, build, and bundle the UI for publishing"
2019-04-26 17:41:01 <_ikke_> apparently gulp is not available yet on alpine
2019-04-26 17:41:07 <_ikke_> I'd have to install it via npm
2019-04-26 17:41:20 <SpaceToast> we already install antora via npm (well, via yarn, I think?)
2019-04-26 17:41:27 <_ikke_> right
2019-04-26 17:41:29 <SpaceToast> is there any issue with doing that?
2019-04-26 17:42:48 <_ikke_> It's better then the alternative
2019-04-26 17:51:57 <_ikke_> Using yarn global add gulp, but apparently it's still missing dependencies after that
2019-04-26 17:52:05 <_ikke_> [17:50:32] Local gulp not found in ~
2019-04-26 17:52:30 <SpaceToast> oh you have to add gulp-cli
2019-04-26 17:52:35 <SpaceToast> https://gulpjs.com/
2019-04-26 17:52:49 <SpaceToast> they do the usual weird "library + frontend" stuff
2019-04-26 17:53:11 <_ikke_> [17:52:48] Local gulp not found in /usr/local/bin
2019-04-26 17:53:24 <_ikke_> Doesn't make a difference
2019-04-26 17:53:40 <SpaceToast> yarn's `global add` usually puts it into ~/ somewhere
2019-04-26 17:53:57 <_ikke_> except when you run it as root
2019-04-26 17:54:02 <SpaceToast> aha
2019-04-26 17:54:05 <SpaceToast> I run it as user
2019-04-26 17:54:05 <_ikke_> then it installs it in /usr/local/bin
2019-04-26 17:54:20 <SpaceToast> let me test in a container
2019-04-26 17:55:33 <SpaceToast> hmm
2019-04-26 17:55:51 <SpaceToast> it seems to be functional for me: https://i.imgur.com/W9SgwX8.png
2019-04-26 17:56:32 <SpaceToast> aha, it's complaining about lack of local modules
2019-04-26 17:56:37 <_ikke_> yes
2019-04-26 17:56:49 <_ikke_> gulp --version is working for me
2019-04-26 17:56:51 <SpaceToast> it suggests running `npm install`; running `yarn install` now to see if it helps
2019-04-26 17:57:18 <SpaceToast> now it wants autoreconf..
2019-04-26 17:57:32 <_ikke_> :-/
2019-04-26 17:57:56 <SpaceToast> failing linting ...
2019-04-26 17:58:25 <SpaceToast> let me fix those and get a diff
2019-04-26 17:59:22 <SpaceToast> ok, I have it building
2019-04-26 18:00:33 <SpaceToast> so 1. make sure autoreconf is installed; 2. as a bootstrap, run `yarn install` in the directory; 3. apply this diff: https://brpaste.xyz/9-zYTA
2019-04-26 18:00:35 <_ikke_> So you need to run yarn install in a specific project for gulp to actually work?
2019-04-26 18:00:51 <SpaceToast> `yarn install` fetches the project's dependencies and installs them in the local directory
2019-04-26 18:00:59 <SpaceToast> think kind of like python virtualenv, but built-in
2019-04-26 18:01:25 <_ikke_> same like composer install
2019-04-26 18:01:55 <SpaceToast> not familiar with composer, but I'd imagine so :)
2019-04-26 18:02:09 <_ikke_> it just installs all packages in vendor/
2019-04-26 18:02:21 <SpaceToast> yeah, roughly it
2019-04-26 18:02:27 <SpaceToast> it knows to look into ./stuff on its own
2019-04-26 18:04:12 <_ikke_> So if I would create a clean dir with git archive, I must run yarn install (and thus have autoreconf), before I can use gulp?
2019-04-26 18:04:23 <SpaceToast> O
2019-04-26 18:04:31 <SpaceToast> I'd imagine what the gulpfile does
2019-04-26 18:04:36 <SpaceToast> it depends on*
2019-04-26 18:04:39 <SpaceToast> in this case, yes
2019-04-26 18:04:46 <SpaceToast> though I didn't have autoreconf at the time and it worked fine
2019-04-26 18:04:52 <SpaceToast> but not having errors > having errors
2019-04-26 18:06:59 <_ikke_> and automake as well apparently
2019-04-26 18:07:55 <_ikke_> A whole build toolchain
2019-04-26 18:21:20 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: I can probably symlink node_modules
2019-04-26 18:21:52 <SpaceToast> hm, why?
2019-04-26 18:22:13 <_ikke_> So that we don't need to 'build the world' each time
2019-04-26 18:22:21 <SpaceToast> well, we don't?
2019-04-26 18:22:29 <SpaceToast> the yarn install stuff is for bootstrapping
2019-04-26 18:22:37 <SpaceToast> + it's not that extreme anyways, imo
2019-04-26 18:22:47 <_ikke_> I like quick build processes
2019-04-26 18:23:11 <SpaceToast> I remain confused, but trust your judgement :)
2019-04-26 18:23:33 <_ikke_> if I run yarn install, it seems to go through a 20 second build process
2019-04-26 18:23:56 <_ikke_> It's not that extreme ofcourse
2019-04-26 18:24:26 <SpaceToast> sure, but it's one-time bootstrap
2019-04-26 18:24:59 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: My idea was to extract the commit in a new dir and build from there
2019-04-26 18:25:12 <_ikke_> In that case I'd have to yarn install each time
2019-04-26 18:25:17 <SpaceToast> hmm, but why?
2019-04-26 18:25:37 <_ikke_> clean builds
2019-04-26 18:26:19 <SpaceToast> I'm not sure how it's any cleaner, honestly
2019-04-26 18:26:29 <SpaceToast> it's not like there's any built-time state tracking
2019-04-26 18:26:38 <SpaceToast> but again, if you think it should be done, do go ahead :)
2019-04-26 18:28:05 <_ikke_> I'll go with building it in-tree for now
2019-04-26 18:37:01 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: would serving it somewhere under docs.alpinelinux.org/ work for you?
2019-04-26 18:37:12 <SpaceToast> sure, that's fine by me
2019-04-26 18:37:27 <SpaceToast> guessing you'd add an override on the rproxy level?
2019-04-26 18:39:42 <_ikke_> the docs container is using darkhttpd, which is not that flexible, I only have one httproot
2019-04-26 18:40:10 <SpaceToast> ah, you're building it in the same container
2019-04-26 18:40:33 <_ikke_> yeah, I thought that was easiest
2019-04-26 18:40:33 <SpaceToast> be careful then, rebuilds of the docs could remove the bundle (which would cause some awkward problems)
2019-04-26 18:40:44 <_ikke_> Yes, I was kind of suspecting that
2019-04-26 18:41:09 <_ikke_> maybe changing darkhttp for nginx would be easier then
2019-04-26 18:41:33 <SpaceToast> I mean I'm fine with darkhttpd
2019-04-26 18:41:44 <SpaceToast> I just thought you'd do the ui building in a separate container
2019-04-26 18:41:47 <SpaceToast> since it can be pretty small
2019-04-26 18:41:54 <SpaceToast> (relatively speaking)
2019-04-26 18:42:06 <SpaceToast> yarn, autoreconf/automake, git, mqtt-exec and darkhttpd
2019-04-26 18:42:08 <_ikke_> Right, but it's another container to maintain
2019-04-26 18:42:34 <_ikke_> As this is related, it would make more sense to use the same container for it
2019-04-26 18:42:36 <SpaceToast> right, you guys use lxc so it's a pain
2019-04-26 18:42:57 <_ikke_> setting it up another container is easy
2019-04-26 18:43:43 <SpaceToast> I have a single command to update all of my containers (with shared apkcache; + cleaning it) ^^;;
2019-04-26 18:43:55 <SpaceToast> and attaching is quite simple too
2019-04-26 18:44:08 <SpaceToast> but I'm not sure if it's feasible to do that easily with raw lxc
2019-04-26 18:44:54 <SpaceToast> I think you could have a single root for the entire ~ and do some stuff on the reverse proxy, but that sounds awkward
2019-04-26 19:50:29 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: http://docs.alpinelinux.org/theme-source/ui-bundle.zip
2019-04-26 19:50:37 <_ikke_> (not automatically built yet atm)
2019-04-26 19:54:28 <SpaceToast> alright, I'll test it once I'm off work
2019-04-26 19:54:36 <SpaceToast> I guess we'll also find out if builds break it! :D
2019-04-26 19:54:44 <_ikke_> hehe :D
2019-04-26 19:55:08 <_ikke_> I did switch to nginx so that I could at least put it in a different directory
2019-04-26 20:31:25 <SpaceToast> ping _ikke_: just pushed the changed playbook
2019-04-26 20:31:33 <SpaceToast> looks like it didn't get rebuilt for whatever reason
2019-04-26 20:31:41 <_ikke_> ok, let me take a look
2019-04-26 20:34:11 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: did it work now?
2019-04-26 20:34:19 <SpaceToast> no
2019-04-26 20:34:26 <SpaceToast> you can look for yourself, https://beta.docs.alpinelinux.org/user-handbook/0.1a/index.html
2019-04-26 20:34:33 <SpaceToast> it's supposed to have a very different navbar :)
2019-04-26 20:38:21 <_ikke_> Oh, sight
2019-04-26 20:38:23 <_ikke_> sigh*
2019-04-26 20:39:08 <_ikke_> error: connect ECONNREFUSED 147.75.101.119:80
2019-04-26 20:39:44 <_ikke_> some weird nat/firewall issue that is preventing us from connecting to the external address from within a container
2019-04-26 20:40:00 <SpaceToast> do you have loopback nat on?
2019-04-26 20:40:43 <_ikke_> in the kernel or iptables?
2019-04-26 20:40:53 <SpaceToast> iptables
2019-04-26 20:41:01 <SpaceToast> I don't have the iptables command on hand, but the ferm conf looks like this:
2019-04-26 20:41:08 <SpaceToast> saddr $NET_LOCAL mod conntrack ctstate DNAT MASQUERADE;
2019-04-26 20:41:18 <SpaceToast> basically "if the firewall wants to DNAT it, MASQUERADE"
2019-04-26 20:41:29 <_ikke_> -A POSTROUTING -o bond0 -j MASQUERADE
2019-04-26 20:41:37 <_ikke_> but nothing on lo
2019-04-26 20:41:42 <SpaceToast> hmm
2019-04-26 20:41:47 <SpaceToast> I don't think that's the same thing
2019-04-26 20:41:53 <SpaceToast> the above should be under -t nat
2019-04-26 20:41:59 <SpaceToast> in postrouting too
2019-04-26 20:42:03 <_ikke_> -A PREROUTING -i bond0 -p tcp -m multiport --dports 80,443 -j DNAT --to-destination 172.16.8.4
2019-04-26 20:42:16 <SpaceToast> yeah, so you have the classical case
2019-04-26 20:42:23 <SpaceToast> and it sounds like you don't have needlepoint
2019-04-26 20:42:32 <_ikke_> This is all managed via awall btw
2019-04-26 20:42:35 <SpaceToast> aha
2019-04-26 20:42:42 <SpaceToast> I'm not familiar enough with awall
2019-04-26 20:42:44 <SpaceToast> I use ferm
2019-04-26 20:42:47 <_ikke_> me neither
2019-04-26 20:42:50 <SpaceToast> let me get the raw iptables real quick...
2019-04-26 20:42:57 <_ikke_> I can do simple rules, but thi is too comples for me
2019-04-26 20:43:07 <_ikke_> in awall
2019-04-26 20:43:22 <SpaceToast> iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s LOCAL_LAN/24 -m conntrack --ctstate DNAT -j MASQUERADE
2019-04-26 20:43:31 <SpaceToast> repeat for each LOCAL_LAN/24 (any prefix works, of course)
2019-04-26 20:43:43 <SpaceToast> no idea about awall though :(
2019-04-26 20:45:04 <_ikke_> so the difference between the rule that I posted is that it specifies the source address instead of the outgoing interface and that you use the connection state
2019-04-26 20:45:31 <SpaceToast> yes, that's because the outgoing interface is not actually the outgoing interface
2019-04-26 20:45:39 <SpaceToast> it never leaves bond0, after all, since that's the machine it's going to
2019-04-26 20:45:45 <SpaceToast> the reason it'll fail is due to ip mismatching
2019-04-26 20:46:26 <SpaceToast> that rule translates to "things that are coming from the local network, that I have detected are going to be sent back to the local network through a port forward, will need a MASQUERADE"
2019-04-26 20:46:34 <SpaceToast> consider systems A and B, with gateway G
2019-04-26 20:46:42 <SpaceToast> the request is A -> G -> B
2019-04-26 20:46:51 <SpaceToast> but the response is B -> A (since B knows it's on the same network as A)
2019-04-26 20:47:02 <SpaceToast> so A sees a request to G and a response from B, and will deny it
2019-04-26 20:47:24 <SpaceToast> so you need G to be aware of the connection state (DNAT) and the source (local lans) and hide A's ip from B
2019-04-26 20:47:33 <SpaceToast> since port forwards typically go into the lan
2019-04-26 20:48:18 <SpaceToast> the alternative form is to not do forwarding over l4(l7) (aka iptables); and just make everything go through a reverse proxy like haproxy
2019-04-26 20:48:22 <SpaceToast> but that'd require major changes to the infra ^^;;
2019-04-26 20:49:17 <SpaceToast> ideally you'd want to do `-i local_interfaces` instead of `-s LOCAL_LAN`, but you can't use `-i` in POSTROUTING
2019-04-26 20:52:12 <_ikke_> https://beta.docs.alpinelinux.org/user-handbook/0.1a/index.html
2019-04-26 20:52:15 <SpaceToast> oh! you seem to have gotten it working :D
2019-04-26 20:52:21 <SpaceToast> awesome :)
2019-04-26 20:52:24 <SpaceToast> thanks _ikke_
2019-04-26 20:52:38 <_ikke_> I just added the internal proxy address for docs.a.o into the containers host file :-)
2019-04-26 20:52:42 <SpaceToast> if and when I have the new theme ready, I'll poke you again (it'll mostly be a matter of changing the source repo, unless I mention more)
2019-04-26 20:52:44 <_ikke_> as a temporary hack
2019-04-26 20:52:50 <SpaceToast> aha, that can work too
2019-04-26 20:53:01 <SpaceToast> you actually have to do more or less that if you *are* doing weird balancing on the gateway
2019-04-26 20:53:06 <SpaceToast> (though I do it centrally through dnsmasq)
2019-04-26 20:53:09 <SpaceToast> anyway, thanks!
2019-04-26 20:53:19 <_ikke_> You as well
2019-04-26 21:22:11 <tmhoang> SpaceToast: reading docs.a.o. Nice job. 1 commend regarding : http://docs.alpinelinux.org/user-handbook/0.1a/Installing/medium.html . It should be "IBM Z (Mainframes)" since IBM Z is mainframe.
2019-04-26 21:23:22 <tmhoang> also there are wiki pages for s390x and ppc64le. Not sure how they would fit in docs.a.o, hope you would figure out :D
2019-04-26 21:23:23 <tmhoang> https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/S390x
2019-04-26 21:23:27 <tmhoang> https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Ppc64le
2019-04-26 21:23:47 <tmhoang> I hope arm people would have similar pages
2019-04-26 21:23:59 <SpaceToast> tmhoang: the focus of the user-handbook in particular is towards relatively typical users
2019-04-26 21:24:16 <SpaceToast> the expectation is that people that want to run alpine on ppc64le already know things like "what is a shell?" etc
2019-04-26 21:24:33 <SpaceToast> I'll try to figure out a place to put that sort of info, but it's very low on the priority list
2019-04-26 21:24:42 <tmhoang> https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Alpine_on_ARM
2019-04-26 21:24:45 <SpaceToast> (certainly lower than making dev/contributor handbooks :) )
2019-04-26 21:25:12 <tmhoang> SpaceToast: sure I just think you're writing docs and provide you whichever materials might be helpful to you. If not, no problem  :D
2019-04-26 21:25:20 <tmhoang> understood
2019-04-26 21:25:32 <SpaceToast> it's appreciated ^^ just telling you why it's unlikely you'll see anything of the sort for a while, still
2019-04-26 21:25:43 <SpaceToast> I'll try and remember that they exist (or at least keep my logs around) though!
2019-04-26 21:26:28 <tmhoang> o/
2019-04-27 01:00:44 <SpaceToast> ping for morning: looks like mqtt-exec died again (or something similar) - I pushed tmhoang's suggestion and the site didn't get rebuilt
2019-04-27 05:58:03 <_ikke_> SpaceToast: I'll check
2019-04-27 06:05:50 <_ikke_> I messed something up with permissions
2019-04-27 17:17:01 <telmich> hello
2019-04-27 17:17:12 <_ikke_> telmich: hi
2019-04-29 11:47:29 <tcely> Is there a git repo for docs?
2019-04-29 11:48:10 <_ikke_> Yes
2019-04-29 11:48:18 <_ikke_> https://git.alpinelinux.org/docs/docs.a.o/
2019-04-29 11:56:35 <tcely> thanks
2019-04-29 11:58:03 <tcely> Oh. That is for a web site. I was asking more for where to store sources of regular documentation
2019-04-29 12:00:04 <_ikke_> Like what kind of documentation?
2019-04-29 12:01:18 <tcely> I was thinking of collecting the various advices from aports PRs in a document for starters
2019-04-29 12:01:41 <tcely> I'd prefer something on GH so that it could be easily updated
2019-04-29 12:01:59 <SpaceToast> try the wiki until the developer-handbook proper gets spun up :)
2019-04-29 12:02:16 <mps> tcely: SpaceToast works on some documention of this kind, iirc
2019-04-29 12:02:53 <mps> SpaceToast: you are here, sorry, you can give better answer than me