2026-06-01 00:00:23 <elibrokeit> I'm not saying hold a secret vote that nobody knows about and then make up whatever you want about what people would have voted if they'd known there was a vote
2026-06-01 00:00:28 <el[m]1> i'm sad to hear that comk and sorry that wayland didn't do that better
2026-06-01 00:00:41 <elibrokeit> where is this "assuming how people would vote"
2026-06-01 00:00:57 <comk> ....is dropping xorg on the charts el[m]1?
2026-06-01 00:01:01 <comk> for alpine i mean
2026-06-01 00:01:34 <iggy> it isn't, but nobody has voted on anything, there's just been a bunch of people giving their opionin or parroting the anti-AI talking points ad-nauseum on a gitlab issue (sorry work item)
2026-06-01 00:02:25 <el[m]1> comk: i wouldn't know
2026-06-01 00:03:06 <skarnet> when I agree with it, it's a perfectly rational argument that I have studied and made mine and that is valid. When I disagree with it, it's a talking point and you are just parroting.
2026-06-01 00:03:49 <skarnet> I don't particularly want to be hostile here, but man, could we please stick to intellectual honesty
2026-06-01 00:16:27 <elibrokeit> given I'm the actual individual who is being directly accused of something, I suppose I can also find it personally amazing that I'm being told *I* have assumed how people will vote because I said "having a vote is perfectly viable and people who abstain from voting have declared that they don't believe their input should be used to sway things one way or another"
2026-06-01 00:16:56 <iggy> I feel like anyone who blanket bans anything can't be intellectually honest by definition
2026-06-01 00:17:01 <elibrokeit> but whatever, apparently now it's not actually me assuming anything "because nobody has voted yet"
2026-06-01 00:17:23 <elibrokeit> iggy: ok, I blanket ban murder
2026-06-01 00:17:40 <elibrokeit> is that intellectually dishonest, and if so, why
2026-06-01 00:18:25 <iggy> you forgot "are obviously okay with a ban" in your quote there
2026-06-01 00:19:24 <elibrokeit> comk: btw that is a fascinating and excellent article. (speaking as a boring person who uses xorg still, solely because his desktop environment of choice only supports xorg, so, no real personal experience in accessibility, but sympathetic to the fact that most people don't seem to talk or care about it)
2026-06-01 00:19:55 <el[m]1> iggy: for what it's worth, society blanket bans a lot of things
2026-06-01 00:20:15 <elibrokeit> el[m]1: nonono, that's intellectually dishonest. stoppit immediately 
2026-06-01 00:21:40 <iggy> one could argue killing Osama bin Laden was murder, but there's plenty of people okay with it
2026-06-01 00:22:34 <ewo> 
ACTION puffs their joint and reminisces about studying anthropology

2026-06-01 00:23:35 <elibrokeit> "the crime of unlawfully and unjustifiably killing a person", "to kill (a person) unlawfully and unjustifiably with premeditated malice"
2026-06-01 00:24:52 <ewo> One could argue that, on the topic of intellectually dishonest, LLMS/AI slop by their very nature
2026-06-01 00:25:24 <ewo> are intellectually dishonest themselves due to the scraping of people's data
2026-06-01 00:25:53 <ewo> The socio-economical and political nature they/AI are being used now today
2026-06-01 00:26:01 <ewo> not to mention the ethical hurdles
2026-06-01 00:26:38 <Sheila> who is calling for a blanket ban, anyway? all I've been hearing about is a moratorium.
2026-06-01 00:27:10 <elibrokeit> seems like a good thing to blanket ban. with particular note to "unjustifiably".
2026-06-01 00:27:47 <elibrokeit> Sheila: a moratorium trivially reads as a "limited duration ban, which is blanket until it expires"
2026-06-01 00:33:09 <comk> blanket ban on using LLMs for generating("helping with") alpine contributions? the sentiment i got in the thread was "technically that's already the case under other rules but worth clarifying by making it explicit" 
2026-06-01 00:33:53 <comk> the contention seems to be use for translations of human language for reviews & comments
2026-06-01 00:34:16 <comk> wheres blanket banning LLM-assistedgenerated code seems uncontroversion
2026-06-01 00:34:21 <comk> uncontroversial*
2026-06-01 00:43:40 <invoked> it should be uncontroversial. worth noting: this thing, that only came into existence recently (in its current form, which is predominantly commercial) is now something that's immediately turned into people feeling wronged/oppressed when anything gets in the way of their use of it.
2026-06-01 00:49:21 <lotheac> i don't think it's unreasonable for someone to feel inconvenienced or frustrated if they get told "no, you cannot use that tool", regardless of whether that tool is an LLM or something else. but i would not describe that reaction as "oppressed"
2026-06-01 00:57:44 <invoked> lotheac: https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/work_items/697#note_615878 the context. this went from being a tool, to being a group
2026-06-01 00:58:17 <invoked> it's strange that not everyone recognizes how absurd this situation is.
2026-06-01 01:00:29 <invoked> if harming open source through ai scraping and flooding the zone with ai bug reports wasn't enough, now we have people wondering about their employment contracts and this debate dividing what was otherwise fine before this tool arrived.
2026-06-01 01:02:12 <invoked> i'd argue that the use of claude/etc is fundamentally antithetical to the spirit of open source most people have been operating under for the past few decades.
2026-06-01 01:02:46 <lotheac> imho the issue is quite nuanced. not everyone who uses these tools is involved or complicit in the negative effects, i think.
2026-06-01 01:03:27 <invoked> gas pipelines to ai datacenters that are also draining reservoirs. any use is complicit.
2026-06-01 01:04:00 <lotheac> i understand and respect that position, but personally i don't like taking such hardline stances in general
2026-06-01 01:04:37 <invoked> that's not a stance, that's the objective reality
2026-06-01 01:04:59 <lotheac> arguing in that way is not productive, i feel like :)
2026-06-01 01:05:10 <lotheac> so let's stop
2026-06-01 01:05:26 <invoked> 
ACTION sighs

2026-06-01 01:07:27 <omni> I currently don't have the bandwith to participate in this discussion (read all of the backlog etc) but, fwiw, I'm beind a ban on "AI" contributions, there's enough to review as it is, I do this as a hobby and I want to interact and work with people
2026-06-01 01:08:46 <lotheac> i'm not opposed to a ban or moratorium, but something about the way it is being pushed does bother me a bit
2026-06-01 01:10:09 <lotheac> maybe that's just because the issue is important for those against it and i'm reading too much into it
2026-06-01 01:11:13 <skarnet> the way people tend to scream and be angry when they say "destroying everything we know and love is bad" makes me want to vote against them, because how dare they scream in my ears
2026-06-01 01:11:53 <lotheac> yeah, that's a perfectly accurate strawman :)
2026-06-01 01:12:27 <lotheac> i don't think being vocal should automatically mean someone's right
2026-06-01 01:12:37 <skarnet> it doesn't
2026-06-01 01:12:53 <skarnet> but it might be a good idea to consider the possibility that they might be, and get informed
2026-06-01 01:13:05 <lotheac> absolutely
2026-06-01 01:26:22 <infinitywisdom[m]> Hello everyone. Who heads up the gnome team on alpine linux and is responsible for package management?
2026-06-01 01:29:03 <infinitywisdom[m]> Im trying to get in contact with them to report that the setup-desktop script is broken.
2026-06-01 01:30:27 <ewo> infinitywisdom[m]: not sure if this is correct - maintainer="team/gnome <newbyte@postmarketos.org>"
2026-06-01 01:30:39 <ewo> https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/aports/-/tree/master/community/gnome
2026-06-01 01:30:51 <ewo> that's the maintainer in the APKBUILD
2026-06-01 01:30:53 <lotheac> infinitywisdom[m]: reporting an issue with details would be a good way https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/aports/-/work_items
2026-06-01 01:31:19 <lotheac> (gitlab renamed issues to work items, so i guess "reporting a work item"?)
2026-06-01 01:32:05 <comk> lotheac > i don't think being vocal should automatically mean someone's right 
2026-06-01 01:32:06 <comk> ^ yes but also the opposite: a stupid angry mob pushing for or against something doesn't mean they're wrong in case either
2026-06-01 01:32:07 <durrendal> lotheac: "Creating work for someone else"
2026-06-01 01:32:47 <comk> re the "perfect strawman". i noticed this as a  communit vulnerability where flooding the zone leads some people to double down in the other direction for emotional reasons
2026-06-01 01:33:30 <infinitywisdom[m]> lotheac: I'll have to wait until later to setup an account. I am on a spare computer with no access to any of my emails. 
2026-06-01 01:33:55 <comk> even a single annoying issue-insister can cause a manitainer to go "ok thats it i will stop supporting this so i dont have to deal with ppl like you"
2026-06-01 01:34:07 <infinitywisdom[m]> ewo: Do you know if they come in here and if so what is their screen name?
2026-06-01 01:34:54 <shield[m]> hello can someone explain to me how builddir is set in an abuild? I see other abuilds dont manually set it but abuild complains that it is unset when I dont
2026-06-01 01:35:03 <elibrokeit> well, the apkbuild lists Newbyte and that is already the name of someone on this channel, infinitywisdom[m] 
2026-06-01 01:37:55 <elibrokeit> shield[m]: what's the build system used by the package? e.g. for Meson packages I see them write out a random dirname as an argument to meson
2026-06-01 01:38:28 <elibrokeit> for configure scripts you can build in-source, so can "some" cmake projects, and most open-coded Makefiles
2026-06-01 01:39:56 <shield[m]> elibrokeit: Im building chromium but am applying a lot of patches on top of it
2026-06-01 01:40:27 <shield[m]> im just looking at the chromium apkbuild and im getting different results
2026-06-01 01:41:46 <lotheac> infinitywisdom[m]: if you'd like to describe the details of the issue here i can create the work item for you
2026-06-01 01:42:20 <shield[m]> shield[m]: nvm I see in abuild
2026-06-01 01:42:33 <shield[m]> manually setting it in my case is probably correct
2026-06-01 01:46:25 <infinitywisdom[m]> lotheac: When installing GNOME via the setup-desktop script the software installs, but after openrc starts and gets to the part where gdm is supposed to take over and start up. It does not work. Tried switching to lightdm and was unable to get either x11 or wayland versions of gnome to start. I would login and get kicked backed to the display manager every time. After spending several hours trying to troubleshoot we narrowed it
2026-06-01 01:46:25 <infinitywisdom[m]> down to a possible elogind issue Error activating login1 session: GDBus.error:org.freedesktop.login1.NoSuchSession: No session 'c4' known 
2026-06-01 01:46:44 <infinitywisdom[m]> Trying to get it to start manually also did nothing.
2026-06-01 01:47:41 <infinitywisdom[m]> In order to see if this was a setup-desktop issue vs hardware issue. I manualy installed gnome without the setup-desktop script
2026-06-01 01:49:02 <infinitywisdom[m]> Gnome starts with a manual configuration of gdm setup-xorg-base setup-wayland-base and adding gdm via openrc. However that method, while it works, is missing a buttload of packages. I am now trying to just get a terminal application installed correctly.
2026-06-01 01:49:23 <ewo> infinitywisdom[m]: no idea sorry
2026-06-01 01:49:40 <infinitywisdom[m]> It's ok. Just trying to report the issue.
2026-06-01 01:49:50 <infinitywisdom[m]> See if anyone can duplicate it.
2026-06-01 01:50:06 <infinitywisdom[m]> I am on a gen 2 ryzen 7 thinkpad.
2026-06-01 01:52:26 <shield[m]> also is there a way to develop an abuild without having to reinstall 600 packages each rebuild 😓
2026-06-01 01:53:16 <elibrokeit> and why do you have to reinstall 600 packages 
2026-06-01 01:53:35 <shield[m]> when the build ends it purges the packages
2026-06-01 01:53:38 <shield[m]> to clean the env
2026-06-01 01:53:45 <shield[m]> or fails
2026-06-01 01:55:18 <lotheac> infinitywisdom[m]: https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/alpine-conf/-/work_items/10652
2026-06-01 01:55:53 <elibrokeit> shield[m]: I am not convinced that's an accurate description of the problem space
2026-06-01 01:56:34 <shield[m]> elibrokeit: is there a way to simply install all the dependencies from an abuild?
2026-06-01 01:56:48 <shield[m]> permanently
2026-06-01 01:57:28 <elly> `abuild deps`
2026-06-01 01:57:45 <shield[m]> thanks
2026-06-01 02:00:18 <infinitywisdom[m]> lotheac: Thank you kindly
2026-06-01 03:17:16 <shield[m]> sorry another question, whats the properly way to run a bash script from an APKBUILD
2026-06-01 03:17:36 <shield[m]> sorry source
2026-06-01 03:18:02 <shield[m]> I wanted to source a bash script to get the functions, but variables dont pass through into the bash subshell
2026-06-01 03:20:20 <lotheac> generally i would avoid sourcing other scripts into the abuild process. if you have to do something with bash that's not supported by /bin/ash, then run bash and make it source (or perhaps directly run) your script
2026-06-01 03:20:50 <lotheac> can you give a more concrete example about what you're doing
2026-06-01 03:26:16 <shield[m]> I am running a script that is part of a projects build system. I need access to the functions in the script to setup the project, so I must source the script
2026-06-01 03:26:39 <shield[m]> I just made a seperate bash file for this segment
2026-06-01 03:27:21 <lotheac> yeah, either that or bash -c ". foo/bar.bash && whatever_you_needed_to_do"
2026-06-01 03:29:25 <lotheac> of course there may be other/simpler ways to accomplish whatever those bash scripts are doing, but depends on the upstream project how complex they made their build stuff :)
2026-06-01 03:31:39 <shield[m]> oh yeah it discusts me
2026-06-01 03:31:45 <shield[m]> * oh yeah it disgusts usts me
2026-06-01 03:32:22 <shield[m]> and the script isnt doing much except calling python scripts
2026-06-01 03:32:40 <shield[m]> in the long term I will probably resort to calling those python scripts myself
2026-06-01 04:01:32 <elibrokeit> you can skip the bash -c by using subshells 
2026-06-01 04:01:56 <elibrokeit> ( . foo/bar.bash && whatever_you_needed_to_do )
2026-06-01 04:02:08 <lotheac> well, no, because the parent shell is not bash, abuild uses ash
2026-06-01 04:02:11 <elibrokeit> depends on what the thing being sourced does
2026-06-01 04:02:37 <elibrokeit> lotheac: I was getting to that lol 
2026-06-01 04:06:10 <shield[m]> elibrokeit: I tried this, It didnt work because the subshell is still ash
2026-06-01 04:50:26 <ncopa> morning! I do regret expressing my opinion yesterday.
2026-06-01 04:55:14 <ncopa> i guess my main worry is that we dont know what the majority of the devs wants.I dont want the council make decisions based on who scream the loudest.
2026-06-01 04:55:53 <shield[m]> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
2026-06-01 04:56:12 <ikke> shield[m]: please refrain from that, that's not helpful
2026-06-01 04:56:19 <ncopa> what I do know is that LLM generated content is giving us problems, and I think we should try do something about it
2026-06-01 04:57:36 <ncopa> i also think there is a lot we (almost?) all agree on
2026-06-01 04:57:51 <ncopa> those are the parts I think we should start with
2026-06-01 04:59:22 <ncopa> I think som sort of document expressing what we expect from contributors will be useful
2026-06-01 05:00:56 <ncopa> i do not want that new contributors need to read through hundreds of pages of docs before they can contribute. The shorter we can express what we expect, the better
2026-06-01 05:01:30 <ncopa> the less friction for people to contribute, the better
2026-06-01 05:03:34 <ncopa> what I wonder is, where do we put it? in some CONTRIBUTE.md in aports repo? In the official developers guide on docs.a.o? In the wiki? We apparently have the "how to contribute" on the wiki.
2026-06-01 05:22:16 <qaqland> ncopa: write some RULES in AGENTS.md (CLAUDE.md)?
2026-06-01 05:26:47 <qaqland> https://github.com/AOSC-Dev/aosc-os-abbs/pull/16137
2026-06-01 05:29:14 <quinq> Isn't that for robots?
2026-06-01 05:29:48 <quinq> https://agents.md/
2026-06-01 05:29:57 <quinq> “Think of AGENTS.md as a README for agents” yep
2026-06-01 05:39:32 <qaqland> The agents will always read this file, just try to keep it under 50k if possible.
2026-06-01 05:52:16 <ncopa> target audience would be humans
2026-06-01 05:53:40 <Sheila> I think if you want to know how developers feel, anonymous survey.
2026-06-01 05:53:54 <ncopa> I would like to avoid maintaining a double set of docs, eg one for humans and one for AI
2026-06-01 05:54:51 <ncopa> anonymous survey sounds like a good idea
2026-06-01 05:55:27 <ncopa> but it has weaknesses as well
2026-06-01 05:58:01 <ncopa> re AGENTS.md, I think it may also be perceived as that we are supporting use of AI, or are "Pro AI", and will probably lead to new set of endless discussions
2026-06-01 06:06:25 <lotheac> survey's a good idea. it may not need to be anonymous imho, but probably best that it's at least not public who voted what, given the topic's flammability
2026-06-01 06:26:01 <realroot[m]> <realroot[m]> "it wasn't installed at all" <- i do have the firmware `rtl8821ae: Using firmware rtlwifi/rtl8821aefw_29.bin` without the package.
2026-06-01 06:29:33 <realroot[m]> jvvv I see HW kernel link, it's working now with or without linux-firmware-realtek, thanks
2026-06-01 06:29:45 <realroot[m]> *I see HW in kernel link
2026-06-01 06:30:05 <jvvv> realroot[m]: glad you got it sorted
2026-06-01 06:31:24 <realroot[m]> ~/.local/state/tinydm.log has setpriv: unknown capability 'all' for tinydm-1.3.1-r0 and it won't start with x11 but not the one in repo
2026-06-01 06:33:13 <realroot[m]> it works with setpriv package installed
2026-06-01 06:35:42 <jvvv> perhaps you can submit an MR adding `cmd:setpriv` to depends?
2026-06-01 06:37:22 <realroot[m]> will that bring setpriv? cause there is busybox version
2026-06-01 06:39:02 <jvvv> i did a `apk search cmd:setpriv`. it only output the util-linux one.
2026-06-01 06:39:57 <realroot[m]> file /usr/bin/setpriv 
2026-06-01 06:39:57 <realroot[m]> /usr/bin/setpriv: symbolic link to /bin/busybox
2026-06-01 06:40:17 <realroot[m]> i see so apk won't consider it
2026-06-01 06:40:47 <jvvv> not for the dependency, that is correct
2026-06-01 06:41:43 <jvvv> busybox package only has `cmd:busybox` for provides, so its' applets won't be considered for depends
2026-06-01 06:42:02 <ncopa> elibrokeit:  I am sorry for not clearly articulate what those good uses are. It was my mistake trying to respond to the issue while at the same time trying to have a Sunday off and do other activities. I was overwhelmed.
2026-06-01 06:43:42 <ncopa> the day started with "we should probably do something about this council ticket sooner than later", so I tried to spend some of my free time to move that forward
2026-06-01 06:46:05 <ncopa> then the day took the turn "lets fork Alpine" and went downwards from there
2026-06-01 06:47:52 <ncopa> I had not set the day off to deal with the issue. I did have a day full of other activities, but felt that it was urgent to respond. the communication was non-optimal
2026-06-01 06:48:02 <ncopa> I am sorry for that
2026-06-01 06:53:54 <ncopa> elibrokeit: I also apologize if my words were unkind. It was not my intention to accuse anyone.
2026-06-01 07:47:09 <fabricionaweb> good morning, is gitlab down?
2026-06-01 07:48:55 <achill> works for me
2026-06-01 07:49:54 <fabricionaweb> worked now
2026-06-01 07:49:55 <fabricionaweb> thanks
2026-06-01 07:57:15 <ikke> Load is a bit highish
2026-06-01 08:17:51 <Newbyte> <infinitywisdom[m]> "Im trying to get in contact with..." <- just make an issue in the setup-desktop script's repo
2026-06-01 08:25:36 <lotheac> Newbyte: i created one for them earlier https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/alpine-conf/-/work_items/10652
2026-06-01 09:54:37 <ncopa> re setup-desktop and login manager for gnome, last time I had a look at it I think the conclusion was that it needs a reboot or similar due to how it is plugged into init system and due to limits in busybox init
2026-06-01 12:52:45 <infinitywisdom[m]> ncopa: It was rebooted countless times. Did not resolve anything. 
2026-06-01 16:50:51 <ollieparanoid1> if somebody could take a look at / merge this trivial patch, it would be great: https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/aports/-/merge_requests/103273
2026-06-01 16:58:13 <ncopa> merged. thanks